The Stephen Fry problem

Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
It's a difficult question to answer, regardless of how anyone on either side esteems the asker.

Do you theists not realize that the whole book of Job is spent on this question, and also without answering it?

The answer to why Job suffered (though Job was never told) is that his persecution by Satan was a test of his faith.

But one lesson from Job is that suffering is not always the result of sin, that the righteous suffer as well as the unrighteous. This is probably more of an obvious statement today than it was back then.

But the more important lesson from Job, I think, is God doesn’t answer to human beings and doesn’t need to justify Himself or His actions to human beings.

Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
It's a difficult question to answer, regardless of how anyone on either side esteems the asker.

Do you theists not realize that the whole book of Job is spent on this question, and also without answering it?

Do you theists not realize that the whole book of Job is spent on this question, and also without answering it?

Some of us know that whole book of Job is dealing with a question which it leaves unanswered. But the Bible does not leave it altogether unanswered.

I agree that the WHY? answer Job seeks for for the entire debate is never answered to him. True.

However, for him to finally come face to face with God satisfies him and also causes him to repent.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
Can you show me a verse that says, "but Adam and Eve had no idea babies would get bone cancer in the 20th century."

No. Can you show a verse that agrees with YOUR CLAIM that adam and eve literally chose to usher in suffering and evil?

You look thin, tom. Been eating right?

Originally posted by @apathist
No. Can you show a verse that agrees with YOUR CLAIM that adam and eve literally chose to usher in suffering and evil?

You look thin, tom. Been eating right?

The bible says Adam and Eve chose not to heed God's warning of certain death, in the pursuit of the knowledge of evil ways. The bible says that when Adam and Eve made that choice, they ushered in the curse of pain, suffering and evil.

Originally posted by @romans1009
The answer to why Job suffered (though Job was never told) is that his persecution by Satan was a test of his faith.

But one lesson from Job is that suffering is not always the result of sin, that the righteous suffer as well as the unrighteous. This is probably more of an obvious statement today than it was back then.

But the more important lesson ...[text shortened]... esn’t answer to human beings and doesn’t need to justify Himself or His actions to human beings.

But that was not the question.

Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
But that was not the question.

Not to sound obtuse, but what is the question exactly? You quoted an enormous post.

Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
It's a difficult question to answer, regardless of how anyone on either side esteems the asker.

Do you theists not realize that the whole book of Job is spent on this question, and also without answering it?

The book of Job does answer the problem.

Job is tested by a series of evil occurrences, but perserveres through them all, and is then richly rewarded again by God.

And, moreover, this:

. The most righteous man on the earth was thus chosen to be tested. If Job failed, the narrative suggests, then the satan will have made his point. If he succeeded, however, then God’s wisdom and integrity in running the cosmos will have been vindicated. Hence, the protective fence around Job is removed and the satan is allowed to afflict him.

http://reknew.org/2008/01/the-point-of-the-book-of-job/

You can't walk into these arguments with a sort of South Park theology where your purposeful bad take on the book is a stand in for the actual, overall meaning and context.

This is exactly why atheism has a superficial appeal that can pull in a few people but it ultimately sputters out: it doesn't have any truly persuasive message or new analysis.

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey

It's curious to me that atheists--above all others--argue against freewill. Adam and Eve--obviously not atheists--preferred suffering over 'Pleasantville.'[/b]

You speak of Adam and Eve matter of factly, as though their existence wasn't entirely fictional. Which is odd.

Our species evolved sir. Catch up!

Originally posted by @tom-wolsey
Not to sound obtuse, but what is the question exactly? You quoted an enormous post.

The question is, Why do bad things happen to good people?

Originally posted by @philokalia
The book of Job does answer the problem.

Job is tested by a series of evil occurrences, but perserveres through them all, and is then richly rewarded again by God.

And, moreover, this:

[quote]. The most righteous man on the earth was thus chosen to be tested. If Job failed, the narrative suggests, then the satan will have made his point. If he ...[text shortened]... le but it ultimately sputters out: it doesn't have any truly persuasive message or new analysis.

"...purposeful bad take"? Nah, sorry, claim rejected. There's nothing wrong with struggling with a question without a definitive result. That is your assumption, not mine.

Edit: and a guy like you could learn a LOT from South Park. [That is not an insult.]

Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
The question is, Why do bad things happen to good people?

Because bad people exist in the world? Because people have free will to be bad or good? Because the effects of sin are not confined to bad people?

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
You speak of Adam and Eve matter of factly, as though their existence wasn't entirely fictional. Which is odd.

Our species evolved sir. Catch up!

The theory of evolution has significant, and, in my view, fatal flaws. Are you not aware of them?

Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
"...purposeful bad take"? Nah, sorry, claim rejected. There's nothing wrong with struggling with a question without a definitive result. That is your assumption, not mine.

Edit: and a guy like you could learn a LOT from South Park. [That is not an insult.]

Elaborate on your position on Job, then.

Originally posted by @philokalia
The book of Job does answer the problem.

Job is tested by a series of evil occurrences, but perserveres through them all, and is then richly rewarded again by God.

And, moreover, this:

[quote]. The most righteous man on the earth was thus chosen to be tested. If Job failed, the narrative suggests, then the satan will have made his point. If he ...[text shortened]... le but it ultimately sputters out: it doesn't have any truly persuasive message or new analysis.

Quick question. Why did God find it necessary to have his 'wisdom and integrity in running the cosmos vindicated', before Satan?

Originally posted by @bigdoggproblem
The question is, Why do bad things happen to good people?

Freewill invariably gets the blame.

"Why daddy did our village get wiped out by that plague and cataclysmic earthquake?"
"That was freewill son."