The truth will set you free

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Perhaps that is what most if not all religions have become. But what do you see as unsound?

Lack of evidence. For example, the entire ediface of christianity is based upon the bible. But, what if it's wrong? There is nothing else! It can't be wrong because it's the word of God, and we know it's the word of God because it says so! Circular reasoning a go-go. Then there are is a whole bunch of physical evidence showing it can't be true. How many people have you ever seen walk on water? The order of creation is wrong! Worse, religion beats people down, lowers their self esteem, with the whole "original sin" bit.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Do you mean that you don't think that man has the propensity to be self-serving?

I think it is rather obvious that any individual will tend to do what is in his/her interests.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
I think it is rather obvious that any individual will tend to do what is in his/her interests.

Realistically, what's the difference between saying an individual will tend to do what is in his interests and saying he has a nature to sin?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Lack of evidence. For example, the entire ediface of christianity is based upon the bible. But, what if it's wrong? There is nothing else! It can't be wrong because it's the word of God, and we know it's the word of God because it says so! Circular reasoning a go-go. Then there are is a whole bunch of physical evidence showing it can't be true. H ...[text shortened]... religion beats people down, lowers their self esteem, with the whole "original sin" bit.

Let's say you dismiss all the tales in the Bible that you see as having enough physical evidence to declare untrue. Say you looked beyond all that. Don't you think that there is a lot of wisdom contained within its pages?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Realistically, what's the difference between saying an individual will tend to do what is in his interests and saying he has a nature to sin?

Using the word 'sin' states that a value judgement has already been made. That value judgement is very, very subjective.

Where are you going with this?

Edit: Oh and to take up your other point I do think the bible contains many observations regarding humanity that are undoubtedly true. There is a lot of wisdom re the nature of human interaction that time cannot fade.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Let's say you dismiss all the tales in the Bible that you see as having enough physical evidence to declare untrue. Say you looked beyond all that. Don't you think that there is a lot of wisdom contained within its pages?

Probably. That's probably how it started, a kind of almanac for how to live a decent life. The question remains then, do we really need to delude ourselves with mystical fairy stories in order to live a good life?

Originally posted by snowinscotland
Using the word 'sin' states that a value judgement has already been made. That value judgement is very, very subjective.

Where are you going with this?

Edit: Oh and to take up your other point I do think the bible contains many observations regarding humanity that are undoubtedly true. There is a lot of wisdom re the nature of human interaction that time cannot fade.

I do think the bible contains many observations regarding humanity that are undoubtedly true. There is a lot of wisdom re the nature of human interaction that time cannot fade.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I assume that you believe that you believe that there is a morality that is likewise absolute and eternal. Isn't "sin" basically going against this morality?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Probably. That's probably how it started, a kind of almanac for how to live a decent life. The question remains then, do we really need to delude ourselves with mystical fairy stories in order to live a good life?

Realistically, there's no way to be able to say with absolute certainty that the "mystical fairy stories" are true or untrue. What if the basic principles are about "how to live a decent life"? Do you see them as unsound?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Realistically, there's no way to be able to say with absolute certainty that the "mystical fairy stories" are true or untrue. What if the basic principles are about "how to live a decent life"? Do you see them as unsound?

Of course, we cannot absolutely say "there is no God". Of course, we cannot with absolutely certainty say there aren't fairies at the bottom of your garden either. I would postulate there isn't though, due to lack of evidence - exactly the same lack of evidence there is for God. Maybe there is some good stuff about how to treat people okay, and about certain practices if followed properly will help prevent disease. However, it's my contention that religion is psychologically damaging to the people involved, and also that it seeks to replace reality with a "security blanket". Some people want to believe in God because they're scared of death. I understand that, but I don't think it's the best way to live your life.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Of course, we cannot absolutely say "there is no God". Of course, we cannot with absolutely certainty say there aren't fairies at the bottom of your garden either. I would postulate there isn't though, due to lack of evidence - exactly the same lack of evidence there is for God. Maybe there is some good stuff about how to treat people okay, and about ...[text shortened]... d of death. I understand that, but I don't think it's the best way to live your life.

I don't think religion is on balance damaging to the psyche. Of course, religion has been evolving along with humanity and there are better religions now than in, say, 1200 AD.

For many people religion offers peace of mind, solace, and an organizing principle to their lives. And then with prayer or meditation, I think one reaches the most profound level of self-guidance that we have available to us.

Religion doesn't have anything to do with ignoring reality in my view.

Originally posted by spruce112358
I don't think religion is on balance damaging to the psyche. Of course, religion has been evolving along with humanity and there are better religions now than in, say, 1200 AD.

For many people religion offers peace of mind, solace, and an organizing principle to their lives. And then with prayer or meditation, I think one reaches the most profound le ...[text shortened]... ave available to us.

Religion doesn't have anything to do with ignoring reality in my view.

It most certainly does when your world view becomes a 6,000 year old planet, with everything created by God. It is damaging to the psyche when you believe that "God hates fags" (See both Westborogh Baptist church and Leviticus for details), There are lots of people out there who really need psychological help who never get it, because they are enshrined in their religion. Religion also tends to lead to a sloppiness if thinking. Not always, but it's all too easy to fall into the trap of "Goddunit". Likewise, it's too easy to persecute others because they are lesser individuals due to being Muslim, Hindu, atheist or whatever. And yes, I appreciate that you are going to comment on that last statement. However, I don't suggest that we kill all people of a different religious persuasion.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Of course, we cannot absolutely say "there is no God". Of course, we cannot with absolutely certainty say there aren't fairies at the bottom of your garden either. I would postulate there isn't though, due to lack of evidence - exactly the same lack of evidence there is for God. Maybe there is some good stuff about how to treat people okay, and about d of death. I understand that, but I don't think it's the best way to live your life.

Well, I'd give much better odds of the existence of God than the existance of fairies at the bottom of my garden. Of course, the odds for the existence of God depends on what one believes God to be. For instance, it seems less likely that God is actively orchestrating events in the world.

Just like anything else, man finds ways to bend religion to suit his own desires, but that doesn't mean that the underlying principles for living are unsound. Unfortunately very few Christians seem to adhere to those principles. The bottom line is that there is a tremendous amount of wisdom in the Bible for living in this world that shouldn't be dismissed.

As to your contention that it is "psychologically damaging", one could make the same case about the school system, competitive sport or any number of institutions.

I would like to make a hypothesis. Imagine that there is only one God. From the beginning, Million years ago, He has been communicating with us, sending us His messengers to tell us about Him and giving us instructions on how to live our lives.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son,
(King James Bible, Hebrews)


Because the Earth is so big and because mankind is scattered, He has had to send different messengers to different parts of the world. Each time He has told the people of each region that a time will come when I will come again, a time when you are ready for more.

I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. but when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. John 16:12


On that day, He told them, There will be no more darkness, because mankind will be mature enough to realize its unity and then I will send you the One who will teach you all about me.


Unfortunately, the religious leaders in every age have taken advantage of ignorant people and twisted the Holy text to their own liking. To hold on to the power, they have misinterpreted the Word and created disunity. Now there are hundreds of religions but they are all really one, saying the same thing, but having different names.

Of course God knew this would happen.

For you this whole vision is nothing but words sealed in a scroll. And if you give the scroll to someone who can read and say too him “Read this, please.” He will answer, “I can’t it is sealed.” Isaiah 29:11

Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Daaniel 12:4

I heard , but I did not understand. So I asked, “My lord, what will the outcome of all this be?” He replied, “Go away, Daniel, because the words are closed up and sealed until the time of the end.” Daniel 12:8

Now the people of earth are ready to hear the truth. They are searching. Now our challenge is to tune out all the garbage created by the religious leaders and listen to voice of God.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Lack of evidence. For example, the entire ediface of christianity is based upon the bible. But, what if it's wrong? There is nothing else! It can't be wrong because it's the word of God, and we know it's the word of God because it says so! Circular reasoning a go-go. Then there are is a whole bunch of physical evidence showing it can't be true. H ...[text shortened]... religion beats people down, lowers their self esteem, with the whole "original sin" bit.

Lack of evidence.
Untrue. There is not one field of science which has produced any credible evidence which conclusively shows even one part of the Bible as inaccurate. While there have been factions within various branches of science with its own adherents, there are no reasonable people within any of the same which can honestly claim that their research has proven that the events in the Bible did not happen.

Oh, wait. There is a branch of study which claims to be science, but---as its agenda-laden foundation is a premise most decidedly unscientific--- its over-arching claims aren't given credence by any serious students of science. Evolutionary biologists' feverish fervor to rid the world of any mention of God eliminates their 'findings' as the rantings of subjectivity.

For example, the entire ediface of christianity is based upon the bible.
That's like saying the entire edifice of Western Civilization is based upon the Justinian Code. Christianity was spreading rampantly prior to the completion of the canon in 96 AD, and continued unabated without the proliferation of mass-printing of the Bible many centuries later. In other words, Christianity is based upon the truths within the Bible, in opposition to your charge of iconoclasm.

Circular reasoning a go-go.
Various parts of the Bible declare their authourity. These have been proved by virtue of the total agreement of various sources, not simply itself. While the Bible is internally consistent, as stated before, the conclusions of varying fields of discipline have confirmed most of it and (less importantly) none have contradicted it.

How many people have you ever seen walk on water?
What you consider to be its weakness is actually the Bible's strength. How many people ever saw someone walk on water? As far as I can tell, about 12, give or take. And, more importantly, how many people were ever seen to walk on water? Just the One. What an unusual person He must be.

Paradoxically, the miracles of the Lord Jesus Christ were performed for the benefit of unbelievers, and yet you as an unbeliever have the hardest time with the same. You declare (like Thomas) that you won't believe what you cannot see for yourself. And yet even in your chosen field of study, every day you see the overwhelming genius of God; evidence of the fallen nature of His creation; an aggressive push for life despite the obstacle of that fallenness; and still you persist in your disbelief... despite an inability to explain the existence of reality by any other means.

Worse, religion beats people down, lowers their self esteem, with the whole "original sin" bit.
Those who take the word of God and mix it with their personal predilections will always reach wrong conclusions. If a person begins with arrogance, they will neccessarily end up with some religious form of self-righteousness or contortion of truth otherwise. Guilt-based religions are no exception, but they are certainly not reflective of the truths found in the Bible. It was for freedom that Christ set us free, not for exchanging one system of slavish hopelessness for another.

Originally posted by Varqa
I would like to make a hypothesis. Imagine that there is only one God. From the beginning, Million years ago, He has been communicating with us, sending us His messengers to tell us about Him and giving us instructions on how to live our lives.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 1:2 Hath in th ...[text shortened]... enge is to tune out all the garbage created by the religious leaders and listen to voice of God.

Do you believe that all people have the "voice of God" available to them regardless of what religion they practice if any?

What do you think it'll take for mankind to unify?

Do you have a response for the questions posed in the original post for this thread?