The truth will set you free

So please stop taking his words out of context and making them fit something you want them to fit. He's a square peg in your round hole. His sayings point exclusively to following him and him only specifically. No other religious leader makes the claim of being the Son of the Living God who will judge humanity at the end of time and who will be living channel through which men will approach God ...[text shortened]... who you are quoting but it's not the Jesus of the NT , it's a jesus of your own imaginings.

I am sorry to have upset you, my friend. What you say about the Holy Spirit is the doctrine that is accepted by Christians. If you claim that Jesus was far above the rest, and the Muslims claim their book is the best, and the Hindus say their way is best... on and on. This is business as usual. There is nothing to discuss.

I was hoping to step out of the box and explore a little. I am sorry to upset you.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
Wisdom re the people round about you. What is the best way to do something, achieve a result. How do you pass on that information, and benefit those around you, and your offspring, and those around them? Usually tell a story about it. Usually it will have a key point to it, perhaps a warning. Called the moral of the story by some. Wrongly I fear, because much of the nature of human interaction has nothing to do with 'good' or 'bad' per se.

Are you saying that you don't believe in the concept of morality?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Now you're being difficult just to be difficult. No wonder you're always at odds with the closed minded and unreasonable theists around here. You guys are too much alike 🙂

I'm pointing out how ludicrous the argument that "absence of proof is not proof of absence" is under circumstances where proof should be apparent to all.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I had no idea that idiocy was able to be piled. Good to know. Regarding the evidence, however, I'm sure someone of your advanced skill should be more than able to research such 'evidence' on their own.

Not if it doesn't exist.

Originally posted by Varqa
I am sorry to have upset you, my friend. What you say about the Holy Spirit is the doctrine that is accepted by Christians. If you claim that Jesus was far above the rest, and the Muslims claim their book is the best, and the Hindus say their way is best... on and on. This is business as usual. There is nothing to discuss.

I was hoping to step out of the box and explore a little. I am sorry to upset you.

Don't worry , you haven't upset me or offended me. It's not a personal thing at all. You are turning this into something that is personal to me as if it is MY claim that Jesus was "far above the rest" . If you translate what I am saying into something personal to me you have missed the point entirely. In reality it was HIS claim not MY claim.
To me the sayings of Jesus point unambiguously and specifically to Jesus being the truth , the life and the way. He directed us exclusively to himself as being that very way. Now if you are being logically consistent you should really see Jesus as someone who stands against this idea of merging all faiths together in one nebulus entity. You seem to be playing a mental trick on yourself. You should really dismiss him as a divisive trouble maker and reject his claims to be the sole judge of humanity. It's not as if Jesus was unclear about who he was. It's disingenuous to incorporate him into your world view when you must know that his message was not the one you put into his mouth for him.His message was at times divisive.

" I have come to set father against son , mother against daughter"
"I have come to bring a sword not peace"
" He is is not for me is against me"

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Are you saying that you don't believe in the concept of morality?

As far as I am aware morality is an individuals system of judgement. It is not absolute, and can vary (eg be learned). What do you think morality is?

Originally posted by knightmeister
Don't worry , you haven't upset me or offended me. ... In reality it was HIS claim not MY claim.
To me the sayings of Jesus point unambiguously and specifically to Jesus being the truth , the life and the way. He directed us exclusively to himself as being that very way. You seem to be playing a mental trick on yourself. You should really dismiss him ...[text shortened]... s message was not the one you put into his mouth for him.His message was at times divisive.

This might be a bit long bt well worth the reading. Please put away everything you have heard so far and with an open mind read.

I and my Father are one. JOHN 10:30

The above statement is sometimes taken to mean that Jesus is God. But take a look at this next passage.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me. JOHN 5:30

This two statement are not in contradiction. In fact they are saying exactly the same thing; mainly that Jesus is a vessel by which God communicates with us. He is a mirror in which we can see God.

1:15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: COL 1:15

...but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father. MAT 20:23

There is a dual nature in prophets of God. Sometimes they are humans like everyone else, and at other times they are God Himself.

For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. 3:23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. ACT 3:22 TO 26

Clearly Jesus is a prophet like Moses, but Moses and Jesus are not just regular prophets.

And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, 34:11 In all the signs and the wonders, which the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, and to all his servants, and to all his land, 34:12 And in all that mighty hand, and in all the great terror which Moses shewed in the sight of all Israel. DEU 34:11

And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I the LORD will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream. 12:7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house. 12:8 With him will I speak face to face, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude of the LORD shall he behold: wherefore then were ye not afraid to speak against my servant Moses? NUM 12:6,7,8

As we see from the above passages, Moses, like Jesus, was no ordinary prophet.
Now let’s look at some of the similarities between Moses and Jesus.

I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. DEU 18:18

Now therefore go, and I will be with thy mouth, and teach thee what thou shalt say. EX 4:12

And Moses said, Hereby ye shall know that the LORD hath sent me to do all these works; for I have not done them of mine own mind. NUM 16:28

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. JOHN 14:10

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak. JOHN 12:49,51

Titles can be confusing. One title we see in the Bible is the Son of Man. Jesus was called the Son of Man, but so was Daniel.

So he came near where I [Daniel] stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision. DAN 8:18

And Ezikiel.

Son of man[Ezekiel], I have made thee a watchman unto the house of Israel: therefore hear the word at my mouth, and give them warning from me. EZE 3:17

Then there is the Son of God. As we discussed earlier, David was also called by that name.

I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou [David] art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. PSA 2:7

I will set his [David's] hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers. 89:26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation. 89:27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. PSA 89:25,26,27

Servant of God
The last title is that of Servant. This one is very interesting. I find two instances where Jesus is called Servant.

The God of Abraham, and of Isaac, and of Jacob, the God of our fathers, hath glorified his Servant Jesus; whom ye delivered up, and denied him in the presence of Pilate, when he was determined to let him go. ACT 3:13

Unto you first God, having raised up his Servant Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. ACT 3:26

What is interesting is that The King James version has this exact passage translated “Son” instead of “Servant.” Either Son and Servant are the same thing in the original Bible text or it has been changed.
Jesus himself described what a servant is.

No longer do I call you servants for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you my friends, for all things I heard from my Father, I have made known to you. John 15:15

Remember the words that I said to you. A servant is not greater than his master. John 15:20

Now compare this to what Jesus said about himself.

The words that I speak to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does the works. John 14:10

My Father is greater than I. John 14:28

You see that Jesus was a servant of God, just like Moses was. He does not know about the Father except for what he hears.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
As far as I am aware morality is an individuals system of judgement. It is not absolute, and can vary (eg be learned). What do you think morality is?

I guess I see there being an "ultimate reality". Truths that are absolute and eternal. Mankind's current knowledge would be a subset of this and in many cases incorrect. A standard of living based on this ultimate reality would also be absolute and eternal. This is what I think of as "morality". I think you're right in that man tends to create his own standards of living in this world that deviate from ultimate reality just as his current knowledge set deviates from ultimate reality.

Originally posted by Varqa
This might be a bit long bt well worth the reading. Please put away everything you have heard so far and with an open mind read.

I and my Father are one. JOHN 10:30

The above statement is sometimes taken to mean that Jesus is God. But take a look at this next passage.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is ju ...[text shortened]... ervant of God, just like Moses was. He does not know about the Father except for what he hears.

This might be a bit long bt well worth the reading.
You were both right and wrong. I'll leave it to you to figure out where each applies.

One question, however: how is one to put away everything heard so far, when all you offer is the same, tired superficial tripe offered in the past?

Originally posted by Varqa
This might be a bit long bt well worth the reading. Please put away everything you have heard so far and with an open mind read.

[b]I and my Father are one. JOHN 10:30

The above statement is sometimes taken to mean that Jesus is God. But take a look at this next passage.

I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is ...[text shortened]... ervant of God, just like Moses was. He does not know about the Father except for what he hears.

There is one overall problem with your thesis . You compare Jesus to being just a prophet and yet no prophet has ever claimed to be the judge of all mankind. No prophet has ever said that the Father has handed over judgement of humans to him. In any case , how is Jesus to judge all men if he is not God and part of the trinity??? He would have to dwell in all men and be present at all situations to judge properly. Only an omnipresent God can judge.

Also , your idea of Jesus being a servant of the Father does not exclude the possibility of him being part of the trinity. Just because the Father is greater than the Son does not mean the Son is not of the same substance.

Also , Moses did not claim he would be ressurected from the dead
You simply have no idea who you are dealing with here.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I guess I see there being an "ultimate reality". Truths that are absolute and eternal. Mankind's current knowledge would be a subset of this and in many cases incorrect. A standard of living based on this ultimate reality would also be absolute and eternal. This is what I think of as "morality". I think you're right in that man tends to create his own sta ...[text shortened]... te from ultimate reality just as his current knowledge set deviates from ultimate reality.

I can understand why it is more comforting to think of absolutes, no-one likes walking on shifting sand. But just because something is comforting does not mean that it is true. I would agree that we are limited, our knowledge always subject to revision, and nothing more suspect than our peers claiming to know they know everything.

A standard of living based on 'untimate reality' - how can we, as frail and weak and flickers of life even claim to know how to live according to an absolute and eternal standard? Surely that falls straight into the trap that 'man tends to create his own standards of living'.

Originally posted by knightmeister
You simply have no idea who you are dealing with here.

I believe this pretty much sums it up, that I don't know who I am dealing with.

I appreciate the effort to save my soul here, but I would rather go to hell.

I simply can not believe in the narrow vision of the universe provided by the Bible. I can not be threatened by the roundness or the age of the earth or the fact that stars are too big to fall on it. I can not believe that God would speak to the people who live in that small area covered by the Bible and leave the rest of the world in darkness.I can not ignore the millions of people who believe in Krishna, Buddha, Zoroaster, Mohamad..., and say they are all delusional and they are all going to hell.

Maybe you guys can come visit me in hell.

Originally posted by snowinscotland
I can understand why it is more comforting to think of absolutes, no-one likes walking on shifting sand. But just because something is comforting does not mean that it is true. I would agree that we are limited, our knowledge always subject to revision, and nothing more suspect than our peers claiming to know they know everything.

A standard of liv ly that falls straight into the trap that 'man tends to create his own standards of living'.

I'm not sure what 'comforting' has to do with anything. Truth is truth. What precludes there being an absolute and eternal standard of living in this world? I have to believe that you see some moral standards as absolute and eternal: Don't murder, don't rape, don't steal, etc.

All man can do is to try and understand the absolute and eternal standard. I'm not sure why you seem to see this as different from the rest of man's quest for knowledge.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I'm not sure what 'comforting' has to do with anything. Truth is truth. What precludes there being an absolute and eternal standard of living in this world? I have to believe that you see some moral standards as absolute and eternal: Don't murder, don't rape, don't steal, etc.

All man can do is to try and understand the absolute and eternal standard. I ...[text shortened]... t sure why you seem to see this as different from the rest of man's quest for knowledge.

Comforting has to do with us wanting to believe something that gives us comfort. There is a human drive to be comforted, and that includes wanting to have limits. I mean if you have kids, you will understand what I mean.

Let's take one of your 'absolutes'. Do Not Steal. Your car breaks down in the desert, you find an empty house. Can you take what you need to survive? Isn't that stealing?

Originally posted by snowinscotland
Comforting has to do with us wanting to believe something that gives us comfort. There is a human drive to be comforted, and that includes wanting to have limits. I mean if you have kids, you will understand what I mean.

Let's take one of your 'absolutes'. Do Not Steal. Your car breaks down in the desert, you find an empty house. Can you take what you need to survive? Isn't that stealing?

What is true and what is "comforting" aren't necessarily the same thing. That's a pretty big leap in assuming that one believes in morality solely because it's "comforting".

Ask yourself this: What is it about stealing that makes it wrong? The point is not to "wrong" others.