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10 May 19
@sonship saidI admit I have thrown in the towel in trying to get you to address the serious accusation by Lee about Christians being in an organization of Satan.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Your fixation on the mustard seed is a little unhealthy to be honest.
Your lazy way of giving up the debate under the pretense of shunning in depth analysis of a problematic passage is not terribly intellectually healthy.
You could be honest and just admit that you're throwing in the towel.
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10 May 19
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I admit I have thrown in the towel in trying to get you to address the serious accusation by Lee about Christians being in an organization of Satan.
I have not denied your quote though I have yet to find it. ( I take for granted you got it from somewhere ).
I HAVE shown you the biblical and historical ground helping the saints of God diagnose their difficulties by SAYING what he said.
I have also shown you others have uttered similar things.
I have also shown you the parables of Christ virtually predict the same things.
If you are only on the level of wanting to hear "ooo! oooo! bad!, bad!" then you're not really interested in a close examination but a superficial shock value of your lifted quote.
I don't need you. You know me. I'll keep on making a case without you.
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10 May 19
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Taking a little break to hear Brother Witness Lee himself speak.
Under the Enemy Satan's Frustration, Damage, & Corruption
The Constitution and the Building Up of the Body of Christ
Msg 02/06 - Under the Enemy Satan's Frustration, Damage, & Corruption
1992 W.L
His care for the brothers and sisters is wonderful though at times frank.
10 May 19
@sonship saidWhatever happens during the church age is not under discussion. This is the reason why people find you to be a deceitful fool. The issue is NOT ABOUT THE CHURCH AGE. The church age is finished. Jesus is speaking of the Kingdom of Heaven AT WHICH TIME SATAN IS BOUND FOR 1000 YRS.
@Rajk999
Utter nonsense. Satan has no part in the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Satan and the Kingdom of God are mutually exclusive.
Yes they are mutually exclusive eventually.
But throughout the church age you see NO conflict between the two ?
That's very superfiscial if you do not notice the warfare going on between the two kingdoms in ...[text shortened]... orld become those of Christ in His second coming as a reward to those who have lived in the reality.
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. (Matthew 13:33 KJV)
Jesus likens the Kingdom as leaven which gradually spreads throughout the world. Any attempt to use this passage to claim that churches are the organisation of Satan is a failure from the start, because Satan is out of commission.
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11 May 19
4 edits
Next we have Rajk999 try to jury rig the parables of Matthew 13 so that they have nothing to do with the church age. Watch him fall flat on his face.
Whatever happens during the church age is not under discussion.
This is an arbitrary rule that Rajk999 tries to establish in a self serving way.
But first his usual insult to attempt to strengthen his otherwise feeble point.
This is the reason why people find you to be a deceitful fool.
Now to his logic.
The issue is NOT ABOUT THE CHURCH AGE.
The parable of the tares sown among the wheat (Matt.13:24-30) obviously has in mind the church age. It is AFTER the mixture has caused confusion during the church age that the angels will come to separate the wheat (genuine sons of the kingdom) from the tares (the phony disciples).
But he said to them, No, lest while collecting the tares, you uproot the wheat along with them.
Let both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST, and at the time OF THE HARVEST I will say to the reapers, Collect first the tares and bind them into bundles to burn them up, but the wheat gather into my barn." (13:29,30)
That means the during the church age nominal Christians will be mixed up with real Christians in the world. No attempt should be made by the disciples to rid the world of phony Christians because they do not have always the ability to tell the difference.
But at the CLOSE of the church age when Christ and His angels come down the separation will be carried out by the angels. This is the interpretation Jesus gives to His own words.
Therefore just as the tares are collected and burned up with fire, so will it be at the CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE.
The Son of Man will send His angels and they will collect out of His kingdom all the stumbling blocks and those who practice lawlessness, And will cast them into the furnace of fire. In that PLACE there will be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.
Then the righteous will shine forth like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears to hear, let him hear." (Matt. 13:40-43)
How can Rajk999 say that this parable has nothing to do with the church age? What happens through and until "THE CONSUMMATION OF THE AGE" (v.39) concerns the Christian church.
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11 May 19
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Does Rajk999 mean the very NEXT parable doesn't concern the church age ? Immediately following the parable of the wheat and the tares is the parable of the mustard seed.
Another parable He set before them, saying, The kingdom of the heavens is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field.
and which is smaller than all the seeds; but when it has grown, it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of heaven come and roost in its branches." (13:31-32)
It doesn't make much sense to reason that AFTER Christ's second coming at the end of the church age, He SOWS the seed for the first time. The previous parable said that the consummation of the age was a time of "HARVEST" and not a time for SOWING.
The growing of the mustard seed into a gigantic tree is better understood as events going along and reaching a climax BEFORE the end of the church age.
The same would apply to the immediately following parable of the woman adding leaven to the meal.
"Another parable He spoke to them: The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal UNTIL the whole was leavened." (v.33)
If this is during the age of the millennial kingdom then WHO is the woman?
The woman is a woman of some sort DURING the church age. And what she had done is corrupted and bloated up the flour to make it more palatable, edible, to the masses. The woman is not the Wife but the counterfeit Wife of the Prostitute and Mother of the Prostitutes - the FACADE of the Roman Catholic Church.
Who else is a candidate for the woman? And WHO would this woman be if the leavening process begins only after the second coming of Christ during the millennium?
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The church age is finished. Jesus is speaking of the Kingdom of Heaven AT WHICH TIME SATAN IS BOUND FOR 1000 YRS.
It is true that Satan is bound for a thousand years after the Second Coming of Christ.
It is true that there is a thousand year millennial kingdom commencing with Christ's second coming.
It is not true that ONLY THEN is the kingdom of the heavens in existence. And the parables of Matthew 13 are about the kingdom of the heavens.
For example in His sermon on the mount in the present time during the church age "THEIRS IS THE KINGDOM OF THE HEAVENS" (5:3). But as to the end of the church age when Christ returns "THE MEEK ... THEY SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH" (v.5:5)
So there is the participation in the kingdom of the heavens DURING the church age. And there is the REWARD of deeper and further enjoyment of that kingdom at the consummation of the church age.
Rajk999 goes on:
Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. (Matthew 13:33 KJV)
Jesus likens the Kingdom as leaven which gradually spreads throughout the world. Any attempt to use this passage to claim that churches are the organisation of Satan is a failure from the start, because Satan is out of commission.
1.) That the kingdom of God fills the whole earth is NOT disputed. For Daniel 2:45 shows the little stone cut without hands smites the image and grows into a mountain that fills the whole earth. I agree that Christ's kingdom will spread over the whole earth.
2.) The place to demonstrate that is NOT the parables of the wheat and tares (13:24-30), the mustard seed (13:31-32), the leaven flour (13:33).
These are prophetic in nature about happenings during the church age up until the consummation of it. During the church age Satan is not bound in the abyss but prowls around like a roaring lion seeking who he can devour.
"Be sober; watch. Your adversary, the devil, as a roaring lion, walks about, seeking someone to devour." (1 Peter 5:8)
All during the church age Satan is using death - spiritual and physical, to attack the kingdom of the heavens and damage the church.
" ... and upon this rock I shall build my church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatever you bind on the earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on the earth shall have been loosed in the heavens." (Matt.16:18b-19)
Spiritual warfare is carried out through out the church age. Though prayers can limit Satan, he is not bound in the abyss for one thousand years until the physical second coming of Christ at the close of the church age.
@sonship saidA pile of waffle and nonsense. You are a floundering moron, fighting to support the doctrine of an even bigger fool Witness Lee.
The church age is finished. Jesus is speaking of the Kingdom of Heaven AT WHICH TIME SATAN IS BOUND FOR 1000 YRS.
It is true that Satan is bound for a thousand years after the Second Coming of Christ.
It is true that there is a thousand year millennial kingdom commencing with Christ's second coming.
It is not true that ONLY THEN is the kingdom of ...[text shortened]... ss for one thousand years until the physical second coming of Christ at the close of the church age.
Lee condemned the entire body of Christians and Jews by calling them organisations of Satan. The man is a jacka$$. Your puny little mind swallowed that garbage and joined Lee's cult. Now that you are challenged you are making yourself look stupid.
Anyone who can read will see through your deception and lies.
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11 May 19
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Rajk999 reacts. First the trademark insults to lay the tracks.
A pile of waffle and nonsense.
You are a floundering moron, fighting to support the doctrine of an even bigger fool Witness Lee.
Notice though, No detailed rebuttal. No pointing out weakness in reasoning.
Though our interpretations are not infallible, like other posters here Rajk999 under estimates the care and consideration that has occurred BEFORE we put forth a certain interpretation.
Let's see if Rajk999 has anything other than hot air.
Lee condemned the entire body of Christians and Jews by calling them organisations of Satan.
The ISM of ProtestantISM is about the organizational hierarchy and not about ALL of the saints of God under its influence.
The same would go for the ISM of CatholicISM and the ISM of JudaISM.
I previously pointed out the God calls HIS PEOPLE to come OUT of the Babylon. This clearly indicates that something ending up against God is nonetheless the CAPTURE of His very PEOPLE.
And He cried with a strong voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the Great! And she has become a dwelling place of demons and a hold of every unclean spirit and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird;
For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the fury of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich by the power of her luxury.
And I heard another voice out of heaven, saying, COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that you do not participate in her sins and that you do not receive her plagues;
For her sins have accumulated up to heaven, and God has remembered her unrighteousnesses." (Rev, 18:2-5)
God's LOVE for His people calls for them to be separated out of the condemned system.
God's faithfulness in righteousness will not let Babylon the system go un-judged for her crimes.
What critics of Witness Lee are attempting to argue is that Witness Lee teaches that BECAUSE God condemns and pronounces His displeasure with Bablyon the Great - THEREFORE the participants in her are not His people - saved Christians.
That is a jumping to a false conclusion. They are trying as hard as they can to make it stick.
The organization thing has become SO WORLDLY as to be the possession of God's enemy. And God's PEOPLE - His saved people, the saints, are called to no longer partake of her sins -
"Come out of her, MY PEOPLE, that you do not participate in her sins ..."
Now this is not to be thought of as just walking out of a door and across the street. It is a COMING OUT spiritually and fully -body, soul, spirit - OUT of that system which Babylon like has CAPTURED God's saints AWAY from their real rightful inheritance.
Nearly hysterical Rajk999 goes on -
The man is a jacka$$. Your puny little mind swallowed that garbage and joined Lee's cult. Now that you are challenged you are making yourself look stupid.
Anyone who can read will see through your deception and lies.
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11 May 19
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Lee condemned the entire body of Christians and Jews by calling them organisations of Satan.
Let's deal with Judaism first.
What did Jesus mean by uttering the phrase "the synagogue of Satan".
"I know ... the slander from those who call themselves Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (See Revelation 2:9)
"Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, those who call themselves Jews and are not, but lie - behold, I will cause them to come and fall prostrate before your feet and to know that I have loved you." (See Revelation 3:9)
Now those are pretty strong words. Jesus uttered them to His churches there.
Before Witness Lee said anything about Judaism one way or the other, these words are from Christ in the New Testament.
Why?
Are they Antisemitic ?
11 May 19
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@sonship saidMore deceit, lies and misinformation from your cursed mouth. Where did Jesus call Judaism or the religion of the Jews, the synagogue of Satan? Jesus in his message to ONE OF THE SEVEN CHURCHES, speaks of some people within that ONE church who claim to be Jews and are not Jews. They are of the synagogue of Satan. Not the whole church, and certainly not the whole of Judaism.Lee condemned the entire body of Christians and Jews by calling them organisations of Satan.
Let's deal with Judaism first.
What did Jesus mean by uttering the phrase "the synagogue of Satan".
"I know ... the slander from those who call themselves Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan." (See Revelation 2:9)
[quote ...[text shortened]... other, these words are from Christ in the New Testament.
Why?
Are they Antisemitic ?
You are on your way to hell sonship. The eternal torment you relish and wish on others will fall back in your garden, because of your condemnation and lies pertaining to Gods people, the Jews.
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As you can see, Rajk999 is eager to brand Witness Lee and me a learner of Lee, as an ANTI the Jewish race people. Or at least condemning all Jews together.
Before going on, I think I need to quote some of Witness Lee's statements about the Jews, which will demonstrate that hard words from God can be studied without losing the overall biblical promises of God to Israel.
Bear with a few points as examples:
1.) Lee on God has not cast away the Jews.
In 11:1 Paul asks, “I say then, Has God cast away His people? Certainly not!” Paul was an excellent attorney, capable of arguing and winning either side of a case. If we did not have Romans 11, we would certainly think that God, after having chosen Israel, must have changed His mind. Chapters nine and ten of Romans seem to indicate that God has given up Israel.Life Study of Romans
2.) Israel's temporary stumbling is cause for God to have mercy on the Gentiles - exactly as Paul argues in Romans 11
In verse 11 Paul says, “I say then, have they stumbled that they might fall? Certainly not! But by their false step salvation has come to the nations to provoke them to jealousy.” In 9:32 Paul said that Israel “stumbled at the Stone of stumbling.” Now in 11:11 he says that they have not stumbled that they might fall. Paul developed his argument very carefully, saying that they stumbled, but that they did not fall. In the next part of verse 11 Paul describes their stumbling as a “false step.” As a result of this false step of unbelief, salvation has come to the nations.
3.) As Paul argues Witness Lee follows - God has not cast away Israel only temporarily cast them aside.
. In 11:1 Paul asks, “Has God cast away His people?” Paul answered the question himself saying, “Certainly not!” Hence, there is a significant difference between being cast away and being cast aside. To be cast away means to be given up, while to be cast aside means to be put aside for a period of time. Therefore, Paul’s thought was that God had cast aside Israel, not that He had cast them away.
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11 May 19
4.) As Paul explains, Witness Lee follows him exactly. A temporary discipline has come upon the holy nation of Israel.
Therefore, Paul’s argument is that if the dough offered to God is holy, then the entire lump is holy. This means that all the Israelites are holy. Furthermore, if the root, the patriarchs, is holy, then all the branches, the descendants of the patriarchs, are also holy. Although Israel has stumbled, they did not fall. They have been cut off temporarily; later they will be grafted in again.
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11 May 19
5.) JUST as the Apostle Paul warned the Gentile Christians not to be high-minded against Israel, so does Witness Lee faithfully follow Paul's teaching.
Paul, speaking on behalf of the Gentiles, says in verse 19, “You will say then, Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” The Gentiles may think this way. Paul answered, “Right. They were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be high-minded, but fear; For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; on those who fell, severity; but on you the kindness of God, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off” (vv. 20-22). How wise is Paul’s word.