The Wisdom of Witness Lee

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Okay. Firstly it is a sentence, not a paragraph. Here it is again in all its glory:

My reply - Since we first had this as a Forum topic you have revisited a number of times the PARAGRAPH. I dare say more times you reminded the forum of the PARAGRAPH and not just a single sentence.

So I referred to the paragraph. And discussion of it without discussion of CONTEXT I would find inadequate.

As you were clearly struggling in addressing the paragraph, it was simplified here into a sentence.

@sonship said
Ghost,

LIke Jesus said that destroy the temple and in three days He would raise it up. That got skewed to "He SAID that He would destroy the temple and raise it up in three days."

Accusations, need to be considered carefully in their wording and in their context.

[quote]
'Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organizatio ...[text shortened]... ization of Satan isn't necessarily a bad thing then I strongly urge you to reconsider your position.

Yep. The Leaven bread stuff has already been put in the irrelevant bucket. Please allow it to ferment there.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Yep. The Leaven bread stuff has already been put in the irrelevant bucket. Please allow it to ferment there.

It is emphatically not in some "irrelevant bucket".

None of the parables of the kingdom of the heavens in Matthew 13 are irrelevant.

If you want to level an accusation that Witness Lee said something negative about the church universal, okay.
But if you want to be CONSISTENT you should realize that Jesus Christ said something negative about His "kingdom of the heavens" as well.

Jesus said they should repent because of the coming of the kingdom.
Jesus taught much about entering into the kingdom in chapters 5 - 8.

Now to our surprise He gives a couple of parables which seem to indicate something will go WRONG ... with the kingdom of the heavens.

So I think you should at least man up to this fact that as Lee said something not too flattering about the building up of the church SO ALSO Jesus said something not terribly flattering about the building up of His kingdom of the heavens.

Look Ghost, I don't expect you to agree with everything I present here. I expect you to understand though, WHY something is being said in a biblical context.

"Another parable He spoke to them; The kingdom of the heavens is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal until the whole was leavened." (Matt. 13:33)

IF you argue that all of this is irrelevant, I am really wasting my time to try to reason with you about the corruption of Christiandom. Now is that what you want ??

Do you want me to just assume I am wasting my time with someone incapable of understanding, and therefore give up? Is that what you want ?

Notice what we have here readers.

A staunch atheist like Ghost of a Duke can take shots at Christianity all he wants, explaining how it is bad, against progress, misleading, exploiting, filled with evil doers and hypocrites.

Like world class atheist Christopher Hitchens who says "Religion poisons EVERYTHING" that's okay for them to say.
But when some Christian WHO CARES, WHO CARES for the health and spiritual welfare of his brothers and sisters seeks to help us see the depth of problems with organized religion, we get from that same atheist -

"Foul play. Unfair to Christians! You said Catholicism is Satanic, Protestantism is an organization of Satan, Judaism too."

What we have ironically here is atheists who say they can damn Christianity all they want all day long. But you Christians, if you say something negative about Christianity, we'll throw on our tolerance hat and condemn you for saying MEAN THINGS."

If we can break through this game with Ghost, we might get somewhere with a fair evaluation of Witness Lee's strong words about the ISMs of religion, even the Christian religion.

@sonship said

Do you want me to just assume I am wasting my time with someone incapable of understanding, and therefore give up? Is that what you want ?

No worries sonship. As I posted previously, 'I am perfectly happy to have the craziness of Witness Lee's quotes (on the first page) go unchallenged and for them to remain hanging in their full absurdity.

As Suzianne indicated, the only thing any of us here really know about Watchman Nee and Witness Lee is what you tell us about them. These threads, therefore, are intended to readdress the balance and examine their teachings from a different perspective. This really shouldn't concern you if you stand by what they have said.'

@sonship said
Notice what we have here readers.

A staunch atheist like Ghost of a Duke can take shots at Christianity all he wants, explaining how it is bad, against progress, misleading, exploiting, filled with evil doers and hypocrites.

Was it me taking shots at Christianity, or Witness Lee when he stated, 'Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.' (Rhetorical question).

@sonship said

What we have ironically here is atheists who say they can damn Christianity all they want all day long. But you Christians, if you say something negative about Christianity, we'll throw on our tolerance hat and condemn you for saying MEAN THINGS."

The irony sonship is that Lee was damning Christianity and that you, a Christian, see fit to defend him.

And to equate 'organization of Satan' with saying 'mean things' is weak, even by your standards.

@sonship said

If we can break through this game with Ghost, we might get somewhere with a fair evaluation of Witness Lee's strong words about the ISMs of religion, even the Christian religion.

When you say 'we' who else are you referring to exactly?

You appear thoroughly isolated to me...

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

First, the teachings in the PARABLES of Matthew 13 are not irrelevant.

You have another parable of the man who sowed wheat seeds his field (Matt. 13:36-42). But an ENEMY, in order to cause that crop to be damaged, sowed stealthily tares AMONG the wheat. This created a terrible mixture so bad that only the angels of God could finally discriminate who was a genuine wheat stalk from who was a darnal, tare, a WEED.

This is a prophecy in a parable like the parable of the woman who corrupted the loaf by HIDING leaven in the flour.

They are not irrelevant passages.

@sonship said
Ceasar salad, Sorry guy, that you have to read stuff like this here.

Pay attention to my civil discourse with Ghost, if he follows on to talk to me.
I'll be polite.

Behold the civility.

@sonship said

They are not irrelevant passages.

I refuse to retrieve them from the irrelevant bucket.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Was it me taking shots at Christianity, or Witness Lee when he stated, 'Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.' (Rhetorical question).

You are not being honest about this.

Criticism has been leveled against Christianity by you on this Forum. Don't waste your breath trying to deny it - ATHEIST.

Some of it has some valid ground. When someone like Witness Lee also, seeking to diagnose some of the ailments impeding the Lord Jesus from getting His way with His people on earth, says something critical, that's flagged by YOU as intolerance to Christianity.

You decide which side of your mouth you want to talk out of.

See, now you got me being rude.

Ghost,
Did you ANSWER my questions about the subtlety of this character Satan in the Bible?

Does he sometimes do mischief under the appearance of something related to God, something apparently "good" ?

Before Cain killed Abel from Jealousy, did not Cain come to worship God in the way HE THOUGHT he should do it, and was rejected ? He didn't come with something "bad" in that sense. He came with something about worshipping God. Right or wrong?

And in the course of time Cain brought an offering to Jehovah from the fruit of the ground.

And Abel also brought an offering, from the firstlings of his flock, that is, from their fat portions.

And Jehovah had regard for Abel and for his offering. But for Cain and for his offering He had no regard. And Cain became very angry, and his countenance fell." (Genesis 4:3-5)

This worship time ended with the first MURDER.
Cain was being influenced by God's enemy.
Cain didn't bring something he stole or something bad really.

He brought something seemingly real good, the fruits of his farming labor.

From this EARLY instance of Satanic activity in the Bible, can you see that Satan's subtlety can include him instigating man to do something seemingly related to the worship of God?

You CAN see it ?
You CANNOT see it?

Which?

@sonship said
Ghost,

LIke Jesus said that destroy the temple and in three days He would raise it up. That got skewed to "He SAID that He would destroy the temple and raise it up in three days."

Accusations, need to be considered carefully in their wording and in their context.

'Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organizatio ...[text shortened]... f Satan isn't necessarily a bad thing then I strongly urge you to reconsider your position.

Why is this something WRONG. Where did Jesus say that anything is WRONG about the Kingdom of God here. What does this have to do with Satan ?

This is just another parallel abour the nature of the Kingdom of God and it falls in line with other parables about how the Kingdom of God will come about.

All this parable says as some others as well is that the Kingdom of God is a GRADUAL PROCESS like how leaven works

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Was it me taking shots at Christianity, or Witness Lee when he stated, 'Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.' (Rhetorical question).

You are not being honest about this.

Criticism has been leveled against Christianity by you on this Forum. Don't waste your bre ...[text shortened]...
You decide which side of your mouth you want to talk out of.

See, now you got me being rude.

Please link me to any post I have ever made comparable to calling Christianity an organization of Satan.

Thanks in advance. (And yes, try to remain civil).