The Wisdom of Witness Lee

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

You are swimming in strange murky waters here sonship.

You are replying in short lazy posts Ghost-of-a-Duke.

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

You are swimming in strange murky waters here sonship.

You are replying in short lazy posts Ghost-of-a-Duke.

He said,...in a short lazy post.

@sonship said
Rajk999 doesn't even know the significance of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

Im waiting with my guns to shoot down your nonsense. I dont challenge unless Im prepared.

Oh .. you did answer above. I will reply after I read it.

@Rajk999

Im waiting with my guns to shoot down your nonsense. I dont challenge unless Im prepared.

Oh .. you did answer above. I will reply after I read it.

Not a chance Rajk999.

You have no "guns", barely a soggy limp pea shooter.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Im waiting with my guns to shoot down your nonsense. I dont challenge unless Im prepared.

Oh .. you did answer above. I will reply after I read it.

Not a chance Rajk999.

You have no "guns", barely a soggy limp pea shooter.

Two parables used by Christ to show the Kingdom of God slowly spreading throughout the earth

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the birds of the air come and lodge in the branches thereof. Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
(Matthew 13:31-33 KJV)

The mustard seed and the leaven. Both show slow development gradually taking over the whole earth. There is nothing about Satan. In fact Satan is bound for the 1000 yr reign of Christ on the earth. BOUND. SEALED AND UNABLE TO ACT.

Attempting to liken and equate leaven in this case with leaven used in the sense when Jesus condemned the Pharisees and now stating that leaven = Satan is nonsensical. Satan has no part to play in the Kingdom of Heaven.

@Rajk999

Attempting to liken and equate leaven in this case with leaven used in the sense of used when Jesus condemned the Pharisees is nonsensical. Satan has no part to play in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Satan has his part in OPPOSING the kingdom. Afterall it is a battle over the souls of men and the planet earth. These have become Satan's possession. He will not be idle if God moves to recover both.

The parable of the mustard seed is a little like two parables of the Old Testament. One is about a big tree representing Babylon. The other is about a big tree representing Egypt.

Of course both Babylon and Egypt were enemies of Israel. At best they were both DISTRACTIONS from God's enterprise of a divine kingdom being established in the Promised Land, with Jerusalem as its capital.

First proud Nebuchadnezzar's similar vision of His idolatrous kingdom of Babylon:

Now these were the visions of my head ... I was watching and there was a tree in the midst of the earth, and its height was great. The tree grew and became strong, And its height reached to heaven, And the sight of it to the end of all the earth.
Its foliage was beautiful and its fruit abundant.

And in it was food for all. The beasts of the field found shade under it, and the birds of the sky dwelt in its branches. (Dan. 4:10-12)

I use to read this and thought it was like the mustard seed parable in Matthew 13. One day, no one taught me but I think I realized that Babylon was not God's original desire. That she spread a great kingdom over the earth may SEEM like a great worldly blessing. But actually Babylon was a captivity to God's people Israel. At best she was a discipline for their failure to live by His covenant in the Good Land of Canaan.

There is hardly any argument against this. The great tree of Nebachadnessar's Babylon was hardly the original intention of God.

And the great tree ends up getting judged.

I was watching in the visions ..., and there was a watcher, indeed, a holy one, coming down from heaven.
He cried out loudly and spoke in this way,

Cut down the tree and cut off its branches;
Strip off its foliage and scatter its fruit;
Let the beasts flee from under it.
And the birds from its branches. (Dan. 4:13a-14)

The PROUD kIng of Babylon of Nebachudressor would be judged eventually along with his idolatrous empire.

This fact gives me the ground to account the parable of the mustard seed that changed its nature to become a huge tree with birds in its branches to be interpreted as a negative thing related to the kingdom of the heavens.

Next we have a similar parable about Egypt I may address latter.

@rajk999 said
Two parables used by Christ to show the Kingdom of God slowly spreading throughout the earth

[i]Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is like to a grain of mustard seed, which a man took, and sowed in his field: Which indeed is the least of all seeds: but when it is grown, it is the greatest among herbs, and becometh a tree, so that the bird ...[text shortened]... now stating that leaven = Satan is nonsensical. Satan has no part to play in the Kingdom of Heaven.

The fellow has gone to extraordinarily bizarre lengths to mitigate the words of Witness Lee.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

The fellow has gone to extraordinarily bizarre lengths to mitigate the words of Witness Lee.

What I just described above, comparing the tree of Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon with the tree of transmuted Christiandom, I did not learn from Witness Lee. I gleaned it from my own study when I initially had skepticism about Lee's negative interpretation of the mustard seed parable.

I eventually was persuaded that it must be so that the mustard seed changing its nature and housing the birds of the heavens in its branches should be a negative symbol. Previously, I did learn from Lee that BIRDS were in that chapter related to evil spirits. (verses 4, 19)

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

The fellow has gone to extraordinarily bizarre lengths to mitigate the words of Witness Lee.

What I just described above, comparing the tree of Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon with the tree of transmuted Christiandom, I did not learn from Witness Lee. I gleaned it from my own study when I initially had skepticism about Lee's negative interpre ...[text shortened]... I did learn from Lee that BIRDS were in that chapter related to evil spirits. (verses 4, 19)

As I said, 'YOU' have gone to extraordinarily bizarre lengths to mitigate the words of Witness Lee.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

The fellow has gone to extraordinarily bizarre lengths to mitigate the words of Witness Lee.

And you are the fellow who has gone through some half hearted lazy lengths to grumble that everything in the Bible should be very easy to understand in a few words.

I think a more noble minded approach would just to place some things on the back burner until you are more convinced one way or another.

Now if you want to view the mustard see changing into a huge tree in a positive sense as the great Christianity spreading all over the world deeply rooted in her, then you go on and take it that way.

But when you consider history some more, you may go back for a second look. Christianity's "branches" have been the roosting place of many evil birds carrying out evil things under the banner of Christ's name.

Watchman Nee (not Witness Lee) here gives a comment on the mustard seed.

The parable of the mustard seed: The mustard seed is not the seed mentioned in the first and second parables. Here the emphasis is on the mustard seed as the smallest seed. The Israelites usually use the mustard seed as a figure of the smallest (Matt. 17:20), just as we use dust as a figure.

Verses 31-32: The mustard seed signifies the principle of God's word of life. "A man" signifies Christ, while the "field" signifies the world. While men were unaware, the Lord sowed the word of God in the world. (In Palestine, the shortest mustard plants are about ten feet high, and the tallest are about fifteen feet high. The Lord used the mustard seed to signify the smallest thing becoming the largest thing.) Before 1828 the majority of Bible expositors said that the mustard seed signifies the outward prosperity of the church, for in just a short time the church had spread throughout Asia. They also said that the leaven signifies the inward prosperity of the church and that the three measures of meal signify the whole world. After 1828 people such as J.N. Darby rose up to criticize the error in this, because this kind of explanation was altogether unscriptural and was based merely on personal imagination. If the whole world could be improved, then there is no need to mention the tares in the previous passage, or to mention the fruitlessness of three-fourths of the soil. The subsequent passage concerning the species in the sea also is unnecessary. Furthermore, where in the Bible has God used the number three to represent the world? We can find only the numbers two (the Gentiles and the Jews) and four (every nation, all tribes, all peoples, and all tongues—Rev. 7:9) representing the whole world. According to the facts in the foregoing parables, we cannot expect the world to have a good result.

Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 1) Vol. 15: Study on Matthew
by Watchman Nee

You can suspend reading - lazybones, if you wish.

Someone may be interested in Watchman Nee's (not Witness Lee's) passing comment on the mustard seed parable.

How then should we explain the parable of the mustard seed? From Genesis 1:11-12 we see that in God's creation everything is after its kind. Therefore, the vegetables will always be vegetables, and the birds will always be birds. Monkeys can never become human beings. Nevertheless, this mustard seed became a tree. This is contrary to God's will. Originally, the church was ordained to be the smallest, the weakest, and the least noticeable. However, the church has become Christianity, signified by the tree. Today the composition of Christianity is very complicated. This is due to the invasion of the church by Gnosticism during the second and third centuries, as portrayed in the second parable. From then on, under the hand of the Roman Catholic Church, the church brought forth many shameful things. Under one command, tens of thousands of soldiers were baptized in one day. By becoming Christians, people had the privilege to receive four ounces of silver and two changes of white raiment. Alas! The church became a tree! The birds of heaven signify the evil one, Satan (Matt. 13:4). He is most clever, and he knew where he could settle down. Therefore, how could he let this opportunity pass by? The Roman Catholic Church is truly absurd and thus becomes Satan's headquarters. The Protestant Church also follows in its footstep in things such as Christmas, which is a "bird" that "flew" from the Roman Catholic Church to the Protestant Church.

What do the birds denote? And what does the tree refer to? Daniel 4:20-22 speaks concerning the power and authority of Babylon. Ezekiel 31:3-6 speaks concerning the power and authority of the Assyrian king. Therefore, the tree here refers to the power and authority of this world, especially in relation to the political aspect. Birds denote sins, which come from Satan. Therefore, the sins in today's church actually include the sins of the entire world. What sin is not found in the church? The church has become Babylon, which is utterly in confusion. She is also like a large department store. Satan is most clever, and he devoured the seed (Matt. 13:4). However, he was not altogether successful. Therefore, he changed his tactics by causing the tree to grow larger so that all the birds could come and lodge there. This is, in effect, hanging up the signboard of Christianity but selling the medicine of Satan.

Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 1) Vol. 15: Study on Matthew
by Watchman Nee

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=1EFD894D7A

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

The fellow has gone to extraordinarily bizarre lengths to mitigate the words of Witness Lee.

And you are the fellow who has gone through some half hearted lazy lengths to grumble that everything in the Bible should be very easy to understand in a few words.

I think a more noble minded approach would just to place some things on th ...[text shortened]... [/quote]

Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 1) Vol. 15: Study on Matthew
by Watchman Nee

Your fixation on the mustard seed is a little unhealthy to be honest.

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Attempting to liken and equate leaven in this case with leaven used in the sense of used when Jesus condemned the Pharisees is nonsensical. Satan has no part to play in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Satan has his part in OPPOSING the kingdom. Afterall it is a battle over the souls of men and the planet earth. These have become Satan's possession. He wi ...[text shortened]... d to the kingdom of the heavens.

Next we have a similar parable about Egypt I may address latter.

Utter nonsense. Satan has no part in the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Satan and the Kingdom of God are mutually exclusive. Maybe you are trying to claim that the Christian church is the Kingdom of God, but that is a seriously incorrect doctrine designed to wrongly promote yourself into the Kingdom of God.

The Kingdom of God begins with the rule of Christ for 1000 yrs. At the start of this Satan is BOUND. You got that? SATAN IS OUT. He has no influence over anyone or anything.

So all your passages and references and analysis is foolishness.

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Your fixation on the mustard seed is a little unhealthy to be honest.

Your lazy way of giving up the debate under the pretense of shunning in depth analysis of a problematic passage is not terribly intellectually healthy.

You could be honest and just admit that you're throwing in the towel.

@Rajk999

Utter nonsense. Satan has no part in the Kingdom of Heaven. The Kingdom of Satan and the Kingdom of God are mutually exclusive.

Yes they are mutually exclusive eventually.
But throughout the church age you see NO conflict between the two ?

That's very superfiscial if you do not notice the warfare going on between the two kingdoms in the church age.

[Christ] Who has delivered us out of the authority and darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, (Col. 1:13)

All through the church age before the millennial kingdom Christ is transferring some from one kingdom of Satan to His.
This involves spiritual warfare and battle throughout the church age.

Maybe you are trying to claim that the Christian church is the Kingdom of God, but that is a seriously incorrect doctrine designed to wrongly promote yourself into the Kingdom of God.

They are closely related. BEFORE the millennial age the kingdom of God "IS" righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

For the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." (Rom. 14:17)

Paul is speaking about the normal prevailing church life during the age of the church. He does not say here "the kingdom of God WILL NOT BE... BUT WILL BE ...". He writes - presently - "the kingdom of God IS NOT ..., but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit."

And this has to do with what I briefly explained before.

1.) - the reality of the kingdom (Rom. 14:17)
2.) - the competitive facade of appearance of the kingdom. ( the negative parables about Christiandom)
3.) - the manifestation of the kingdom when Christ returns. ( when the kingdoms of the world become those of Christ in His second coming as a reward to those who have lived in the reality.