09 May 19
@sonship saidYes, I can see it. Your attempt at desperate digression is palpable.
Ghost,
Did you ANSWER my questions about the subtlety of this character Satan in the Bible?
Does he sometimes do mischief under the appearance of something related to God, something apparently "good" ?
Before Cain killed Abel from Jealousy, did not Cain come to worship God in the way HE THOUGHT he should do it, and was rejected ? He didn't come with something "b ...[text shortened]... hing seemingly related to the worship of God?
You CAN see it ?
You CANNOT see it?
Which?
Lee was using the Satan comparison in a gentle, more friendly way, right?
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09 May 19
4 edits
Yes, I can see it.
Very good. Then we have made some progress, I think.
There can be the "Satanic" yet a way subtle that it is unexpected, even worship related.
Let's look at another example in the Old Testament - God telling the people that the worship even He required had become something loathsome to him in its hypocrisy. Through the prophet Isaiah God scolds Israel:
What is the multitude of your sacrifices to Me? Says Jehovah.
I have had My fill of burnt offerings of rams and fat of fed cattle;
The blood of bulls and lambs and goats, I do not delight in. (Isaiah 1:11)
Is this the same God Jehovah that prescribed all the offerings in the book of Leviticus ?
Is this the same Yahweh that instructed the priests how they must worship with consecration offering, sin offering, trespass offering, peace offering, etc. ??
I have had My fill of burnt offerings of rams and the fat of fed cattle;
The blood of bulls and lambs and goats, I do not delight in.
When you come to appear before Me,
Who has required this of your hand, to trample My courts?
Bring no more vain offerings;
Incense is an abomination to Me.
New moon and Sabbath, the calling of convocations -
I cannot bear iniquity and the solemn assembly.
You new moons and your appointed feasts My soul hates.
They have become a burden on Me;
I am weary of bearing them.
Thus, when you spread forth your hands, I will hide My eyes from you;
Even though you multiply your prayers, I will not hear.
You hands are full of blood;
Wash yourselves; cleanse yourselves.
Turn away the evil of your deeds from before My eyes.
Cease doing what is evil; Learn to do good.
Seek justice; Correct the ruthless." (Isaiah 1:11b-17)
Here the all seeing eyes of God sees through the appearance of piety and proper religiosity to the rampant unreality and hypocrisy at root. The whole system of worship He cannot stand any longer because in heart the people are estranged from God.
" I cannot bear iniquity and the solemn assembly "
The principle to not see here is that it is possible for God's enemy, Satan, to so infiltrate the would be worshippers that it is unacceptable to God. Whereas men of the world and the religious world may not discern the shallowness of living, God knows and exposes the condition.
Your attempt at desperate digression is palpable.
There is no digression at all.
What is being examined here is the GROUND that a prophet or servant of God might have to voice God's disapproval of something corrupted by His enemy Satan, YET having a appearance of being for God.
It is so obvious in both testaments. And man's nature has not changed.
The most strident opposition to Christ was from the religious power structures.
Lee was using the Satan comparison in a gentle, more friendly way, right?
Witness Lee in that paragraph was exposing the depth of Satan's subtle mixing of the things of the world with the things apparently for God. And that for the SAKE of the children of God being made aware of the corrupting process holding them down from fuller participation in God's building up of His "organic" living temple, the church.
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09 May 19
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Please link me to any post I have ever made comparable to calling Christianity an organization of Satan.
I said as an Atheist you have been highly critical of Christianity.
I did not say that you abandoned your disbelief in God or spirits like Satan in your bashing of it.
As an atheist I would not expect you to point to the SOURCE of all that is wrong with man as the Devil.
Christians have a locus of their woes in the enemy of God - Satan.
Apart from than locus of the problems of Christiandom, you have criticized it as a woe of civilized society.
And as an aside, I do not think even your God can be both omnipotent and perfectly loving. - I'm sure you are already familiar with the argument of a child dying of a terminal illness. Either God cannot intervene or he will not. If he can not he is not all powerful and if he will not he is not perfectly loving. It is not logical that he can be both and allow such a child to suffer.
That is not a criticism of Christianity?
09 May 19
@sonship saidI don’t, I’ve just proved my point and feel quite replete.
@divegeester
Go study more if you want more.
10 May 19
@sonship saidYou are totally full of crap.
Notice what we have here readers.
A staunch atheist like Ghost of a Duke can take shots at Christianity all he wants, explaining how it is bad, against progress, misleading, exploiting, filled with evil doers and hypocrites.
Like world class atheist Christopher Hitchens who says "Religion poisons EVERYTHING" that's okay for them to say.
But when some Christian WHO CA ...[text shortened]... ir evaluation of Witness Lee's strong words about the ISMs of religion, even the Christian religion.
10 May 19
@sonship saidWhat evidence is there that you "care" in the way you say you do?
But when some Christian WHO CARES, WHO CARES for the health and spiritual welfare of his brothers and sisters seeks to help us see the depth of problems with organized religion, we get from that same atheist -
"Foul play. Unfair to Christians! You said Catholicism is Satanic, Protestantism is an organization of Satan, Judaism too."
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10 May 19
6 edits
As Suzianne indicated, the only thing any of us here really know about Watchman Nee and Witness Lee is what you tell us about them.
Suzianne is going to help you now?
I think many passages show God regarding the system of worship supposedly dedicated to God, and even with some BASIS in His commandments, had become infiltrated with corruption. Therefore all His people should be vigilant and on their guard.
Witness Lee speaks of this vigilance and you seized upon the opportunity to decry lack of religious tolerance. Well, to be fair, you jumped on a handy bandwagon you noticed to utilize others' complaint to rid us of Witness Lee.
Before I ever heard of Witness Lee I read somewhat similar warnings from a book by John Warwick Montgomery called "Damned Through the Church" . It too sounded an alarm about setting in apostasy in Christiandom. His point was that thousands sitting in traditional churches were actually being damaged spiritually through this.
Then there was a sermon given by A.W. Tozer sounding an alarm - "Christ's Wanning Authority in the Churches" . His point was that rather than gaining influence in the assemblies of Christianity, Christ was actually losing authority there.
Then many years before both of these Martin Luther wrote "The Babylonian Captivity of the Church". There he compared the existing Christianity to be as Israel removed from their Promised Land and taken away captive into idolatry of Catholicism.
The point here is not that every preacher who strongly criticises the institutions of Christianity are all equally sincere. Of course some are simply jealous that more do not follow them instead. That is just wanting more turf.
The point is that from time to time servants of God who were faithful levelled frank words about condition of the Church.
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10 May 19
5 edits
The name Antipas means in Greek - "against all". And Jesus speaking to the church in Pergamos says that he had a faithful servant there called against all - "Antipas".
And to the messenger of the church in Pergamos write: These things says He who has the sharp two edged sword:
That means the sharp two edged sword coming out of His MOUTH for cutting away the refuse from the precious in His priestly ministry to the churches.
" ... and out of His mouth proceeded a sharp two-edged sword; and His face was as the sun shines in its power." (Rev. 1:16b)
That sharp two edged sword is His living and operative word for exposing, separating, burning, dividing, infusing with the needed ministry to extricate His people from the corrupting Satanified world.
For the word of God is living and operative and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul and spirit, both of joints and marrow, and able to discern the thoughts and intents of the heart. And there is no creature that is not manifest before HIm, but all things are naked and laid bare to the eyes of Him to whom we are accountable." (Hebrews 4:12,13)
Anyway, in the church in Pergamos, dwelling in the midst of Satan's seat of authority, God had a servant who seemed to be "against all" a whistle blower, a watchman, a faithful voice communicating the real situation before God of the church.
"I know where you dwell, where Satan's throne is; and you hold fast My name, and you have not denied My faith, even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells." (Rev. 2:13)
Between the lines we should see that this church is just too much under the influence of Satan. And to be faithful to Christ is really to be "against all" . Standing against the widespread downward current of corruption - Antipas stood against all of it at the cost of his life.
We may be dull to the degradation of Christianity. But God provides occasionally men and women like "against all" - Antipas to stand firm for the testimony of Jesus.
The GOAL is that some would overcome. The goal is that not all would be so swallowed up in the leavening process, in the corruption, in the inflow of worldly corruption INTO the Christian church. That is why Antipas like speakers from time to time trumpet a frank word to their brothers and sisters in love.
These threads, therefore, are intended to readdress the balance and examine their teachings from a different perspective. This really shouldn't concern you if you stand by what they have said.'
The balance of care is in the ministry of Lee itself. YOU JUST chose to hone in on some sensational like quotations to (I believe) over exaggerate a criticism.
10 May 19
@sonship saidHow have I sensationalized or exaggerated this quote by Lee?
YOU JUST chose to hone in on some sensational like quotations to exaggerate a criticism.
'Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.'
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10 May 19
2 edits
How have I sensationalized or exaggerated this quote by Lee?
'Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.'
You isolated it and continue to harp on it.
You ignore much of context and intent and focus on how offensive sounding you can highlight it to be.
This is not unlike the false witnesses coming forward in the kangaroo court for the Jesus and charging Him with threatening to destroy the Jewish temple so He could raise it up in three days.
A HALF-TRUTH was in their accusation -
There was some element of what was said, yet EXPLOITED and twisted to form a slander.
Mark 14:58
"And some stood up and testified falsely against Him, saying,
We heard Him say, I will destroy this temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands."
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10 May 19
4 edits
Why is this something WRONG. Where did Jesus say that anything is WRONG about the Kingdom of God here. What does this have to do with Satan ?
This is a valid point.
Yes the thought of Jesus saying explicitly that something would be WRONG with the kingdom of the heavens is not readily detectable in the synoptic gospels.
However, if you collect all the verses on the kingdom of the heavens in Matthew they fall into three categories.
1.) Verses about living in the kingdom of the heavens before Jesus returns.
2.) Things proceeding negatively ALONG with #1 to thwart, frustrate the kingdom and create a facade, a counterfeit of #1 during that time before Jesus comes back.
3.) Those who avoided the facade but remained faithful to the real kingdom are rewarded with His return and a manifestation of the previously invisible kingdom in an outwardly obvious world government.
I learned this from Witness Lee and after examining it carefully was persuaded. That without this understanding of the various verses on "the kingdom of the heavens" in Matthew, it is difficult to understand that book.
The way Lee would put it (and I don't think he was the first to) is:
1.) The reality of the kingdom.
2.) The appearance of the kingdom.
3.) The manifestation of the kingdom.
This is detailed and I sense a argument by boredom coming on from some.
But again.
1.) Verses on the reality of the kingdom are to be taken positively.
2.) Verses on the appearance of the kingdom are to be taken negatively as a "facade" or "counterfeit"
running along simultaneously with the reality of the kingdom.
3.) Verses on the manifestation of the kingdom to be positive. That is the victory of the reality over the facade and its eventual outward manifestation in a glorious world wide government under the King - Christ.
This is just another parallel about the nature of the Kingdom of God and it falls in line with other parables about how the Kingdom of God will come about.
Rajk999 says more:
All this parable says as some others as well is that the Kingdom of God is a GRADUAL PROCESS like how leaven works
We do not believe that your interpretation takes SERIOUSLY the nature of LEAVEN in the whole Bible.
And Jesus said to them, Watch and beware of the LEAVEN of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Matt. 16:6)
"And He charged them, saying, Watch! Beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the LEAVEN of Herod." (Mark 8:15)
Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little LEAVEN leavens the whole lump.
Purge out the old LEAVEN that you may be a new lump, even as you are unleavened; for our Passover, Christ, also has been sacrificed." (1 Cor. 5:7)
10 May 19
@sonship saidYou are swimming in strange murky waters here sonship.
@Ghost-of-a-Duke
How have I sensationalized or exaggerated this quote by Lee?
'Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, as well as Judaism, all [have] become an organization of Satan.'
You isolated it and continue to harp on it.
You ignore much of context and intent and focus on how offensive sounding you can highlight it to be.
This is not unlik ...[text shortened]... his temple made with hands, and in three days I will build another made without hands." [/b][/quote]