The Wisdom of Witness Lee

@philokalia said
You do know, though, that there is a disconnect between what two people find to be important.

Perhaps Son should make his posts more succinct -- and he could do taht with more confidence if people were to respond to it systematically.

I am not accusing you of this, but there are posters here who are really all about deflecting & fixating on single points pertinent to them, and ignoring the rest.

Not naming names.

Agreed. Sonship should make his posts more succinct. He should also not spread his reply out over several posts and pretend that he has people discombobulated when they do not respond immediately (when in reality they have simply logged out of the site).

@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Agreed. Sonship should make his posts more succinct. He should also not spread his reply out over several posts and pretend that he has people discombobulated when they do not respond immediately (when in reality they have simply logged out of the site).

The accusation of me taunting people for being tardy to answer is exaggerated. Plenty of times I made no issue about having to wait patiently for replies.

As for every matter being handled adequately in a few words?

Why should I TRY when all that will be said is ... "Ummm You FORGOT that THIS or THAT is involved".

I preemptively deal with some of the "Oh, But you FORGOT or didn't think of THIS ! "

When your answers in a debate are too concise, it only invites the other side to point out that you "overlooked" this or that.

@Philokalia

I am willing to deal with some of the most difficult issues here. One is really bad sounding things said about Protestantism, Catholicism, and Judaism by Witness Lee.

Here is what you need to know. Watchman Nee expounded the book of Revelation saying that the seven churches in Asia in chapters 2 and 3 were a prophecy. They are a prophecy of the history of the church on the earth from the first century until the coming of Christ.

Now, Nee explained (with tremendously sound reasoning IMO) that the last four churches - Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia, and Laodicea represent four conditions of the church on earth which will exist together at the time Christ comes again.

Nee explained that:
Thyatira represented Roman Catholicism.
Sardis represented Protestant Reformation.
Philadelphia represented the recovered church.
Laodicea represented the FALLEN recovered church.

These four conditions of the universal church, Nee expounded, would all simultaneously exist on earth at the time of the second coming. The book which expounded this was "The Orthodoxy of the Church" . They were tremendous messages to my evaluation of spiritual and historical insight.

Witness Lee building on these messages, in his Life Study of Revelation explained Nee's concept.

He said based on verses in those chapters - Roman Catholicism is demonic, Protestantism is dead, and the fallen recovered church is with Christ on the outside trying to get into again where He has been chased out.

He also referred to the words of Jesus "the synagogue of Satan" as Christ's rebuke to Judaism which persecuted Christ and the apostles.

Basically, there is enough blame to go around in the battle of God's reality and the man-made religious power structures that often attempt to take control. This a writer (not Lee) said was like a hand grasping and squeezing oil. Man comes in to try to control and channel the move of the Spirit of God.

Because this post is concise, now some of the fault found with it by some will follow as things I "may not have thought of". Yet we HAVE.

One more crucial thing. And I mean very crucial. Each of the seven churches are represented by GOLDEN LAMPSTANDS before God. This means that in EACH of them there is something of God and Christ about them. And in each of them, no matter how low (ie Thyatira) there is both a call to HEAR the Spirit and a promise of reward to those who OVERCOME whatever element of curruption may be an encompassing dilemma to that church.

This is important to weighing the overall tone of rebuke to the churches. Not one of them is hopeless altogether in terms of individuals in them rising to the desired standard of victory in grace.

Ghost, I break up long posts into smaller more manageable chunks, for what it is worth.

What then about us who meet as local churches saying we are in the Lord's recovery? How did Watchman Nee deal with the problems of the local churches?

Recall, in "The Orthodoxy of the Church" Nee said Catholicism, Protestantism, the recovered church life, and the fallen recovered church life would all be in existence when Christ comes again.

The fallen recovered church are those in Laodicea. They cannot go back to Sardis. They have too much light to want to return to the Protestant Reformation Christianity. Yet they have become proud, too knowledgeable, self satisfied, opinionated, and thinking they have no need of anyone else. Laodicea means "the opinion of the people".

So those who deem themselves by God's mercy to be recovered have no guarantee that they will hold fast to that status of "brotherly love" - Philadelphia until the end. So His rebuke to them is most severe - to the recovered church that has become fallen.

"And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the beginning of the creation of God.

LOOK OUT! Here comes the word of God local church people.

I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am about to spew you out of My mouth.

Because you say, I am wealthy and have become rich and have need of nothing, and do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire that you may be rich, and white garments that you may be clothed and that the shame of your nakedness may not be manifested, and eyesalve to anoint your eyes that you may see.

As many as I love I reprove and discipline; be zealous therefore and repent." (Rev. 3:14-19)

These words both Watchman Nee and Witness Lee used to warn that the local churches could fall again- not to return to Protestantism and not to return to Catholicism but to become lukewarm and self satisfied with an over abundance of good teaching. Yet in spite of good spiritual teaching surpassing that of Protestantism and Catholicism, we might become proud and neither COLD nor HOT in zeal - lukewarm, so so, mediocre, deficient in consecration, unable to discern the true poverty of our state, and in need to pay the price for experience of all the riches possessed as knowledge.

I stop here.

@sonship said
I stop here.

Well done.

@FMF

I don't really have a "doctrine" though, do I?

You're asking me?
I think you do.

And "doctrines" in and of themselves are not bad.
Your Darwinism is doctrine.

And I don't believe that your library contains no books from which you have derived systematic arguments for atheism which have influenced your debating theists.

FMF,

I just have my personal testimony, my perspectives, and my responses to things you claim.

And I have my personal testimony, my personal perspective, and my responses to your claims.
What are you doing that any Christian here with some doctrines isn't doing ?

FMF,

It also seems from your comment that you don't know what the term "rote-learned" means. It certainly doesn't apply to me.

How truth is learned is secondary. That it is LEARNED is the important thing. I've enjoyed it all the way, by both teaching and experience - collective and personal. I quite enjoy reading and studying the Bible. No boring "rote" or whatever, is involved.

Now let's see to your "rote learning" accusation.

Definition of rote (Entry 1 of 4)
1 : the use of memory usually with little intelligence
learn by rote
2 : mechanical or unthinking routine or repetition
a joyless sense of order, rote, and commercial hustle
— L. L. King

1.) My apologetics here has involved a lot of intelligence. Much of which YOU haven't been able to refute even after a decade. My intelligence INCLUDES the existence and personality of God. You exclude God from your kind of "intelligence". Not wise at all.

2.) What's wrong with using my memory along with my reasoning ?

3.) What is boring to you YOU assign "mechanical" as an adjective. That's just YOUR tiredness of hearing true things.

4.) Like you don't repeat? " I am an atheit " .... "I am an atheist" .... "you don't understand. I am an atheist" ... etc. etc. etc.
Like we all need to be REMINDED that you are an atheist.

Ie. "You are joyless" .... "Oh, you are so joyless" ... "Um I notice that you are joyless" .... "Joyless."

No repetition FMF ? My repetition is repetition. But YOUR repetition is not repetition.
Your mind doesn't work too well in this.

5.) "Unthinking" is your WISHFUL thinking. Besides this is as stupid as accsung a married woman in love of having and "unthinking" relationship with her husband.

6.) Your "joyless" card I take as more YOUR joylessness to hear the Gospel discussed. Just because I don't enjoy an argument with a covert narcissistic atheist doesn't mean I am without joy about my relationship with God and millions of fellow Christians. It also doesn't mean I have no joy to announce and further seek to persuade or defend concerning the Gospel of Christ.

Oh dear, that didn’t last long.

@sonship said
FMF,

It also seems from your comment that you don't know what the term "rote-learned" means. It certainly doesn't apply to me.

How truth is learned is secondary. That it is LEARNED is the important thing. I've enjoyed it all the way, by both teaching and experience - collective and personal. I quite enjoy reading and studying the Bible. No boring ...[text shortened]... an I have no joy to announce and further seek to persuade or defend concerning the Gospel of Christ.

My personal testimony, my personal perspective, and my responses to your claims about what I see as the reality of my life are not recitations of rote-learned material, unlike your regurgitation of Witness Lee's stuff. I don't think that any of my contributions are "unthinking", nor do I think every single one of yours is.

@sonship said
Your "joyless" card I take as more YOUR joylessness to hear the Gospel discussed. Just because I don't enjoy an argument with a covert narcissistic atheist doesn't mean I am without joy about my relationship with God and millions of fellow Christians. It also doesn't mean I have no joy to announce and further seek to persuade or defend concerning the Gospel of Christ.

You are one of the most joyless ideologues I have ever come across. I have been around Christians all my life, exhibiting all degrees and manners of joy in their beliefs. But, especially with your repeated boasting about how you are "becoming more like Jesus" with the passage of time and how "Jesus flows through you" here on this forum and how you think you will be "rewarded" in the afterlife for posting on this internet message board, you are one of the most joyless Christian ideologues I have ever encountered.

@FMF

You are one of the most joyless ideologues I have ever come across.

Yea, yea. Rote, mechanical, repetition. Maybe those seeing it for the first time are all dazzled.

I have been around Christians all my life,

More rote, mechanical, repetition.
Try go telling someone who hasn't heard.

exhibiting all degrees and manners of joy in their beliefs.

Am I suppose to turn green with envy, or what?
Am I supposed to get on my knees and beg you to invite them here so I can check them out?

Really!

But, especially with your repeated boasting about how you are "becoming more like Jesus"

Lol. I just believe what I'm told in the New Testament.
And I have tasted it.

Hey! You can doubt it if you want. No problem mon.

with the passage of time and how "Jesus flows through you" here on this forum

I never said "ON THIS FORUM" I just probably quoted John 7:39
You're twisting in your thinking again charging that I specifically bragged about it on this forum.

Because you are wanting to lie and portray me as boasting that "ON this here Forum, Jesus is flowing though me .... etc." you add words that I never wrote. Typical of a manipulating covert narcissist.

Folks, this is what FMF is complaining about, the words of Jesus which I believe and often enjoy in experience.

He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, out of his innermost being shall flow rivers of living water.

But this He said concerning the Spirit, were about to receive; for the Spirit was not yet, because Jesus had not yet beeb glorified." (John 7:38,39)

Yes, I referred to this passage and gave personal testimony to it too. I need to more. FMF added his exaggeration that ie. "Right here in this Forum you bragged about it happening right here." [paraphrase]

Actually, I think FMF's grip is more like this: "If your God were real you would ALWAYS BE NICE TO ME."
He's viciously self centered and evaluates everything and everyone according to how it effects his ego.

and how you think you will be "rewarded" in the afterlife for posting on this internet message board, you are one of the most joyless Christian ideologues I have ever encountered.

I don't use the term "afterlife". And I think you should check your thesaurus and get for yourself a few more handy synonyms for "joyless". See if that works. Maybe, I'll become more "joyless" for you.

Reader isn't that wonderful - Out of his innermost being shall flow, not one river, but RIVERS for all the inward parts of one's being. I want more of this. Praise Him.

Folks, basically all FMF has is having his way of telling me ... " See? I can still say things meant to bother you."

Because I respond to him occasionally, he relishes that he can still say things to needle me.
At least he has a purpose in life, huh?

Aside from that, what really does he have? Not much.