Originally posted by Ullr
I've got to agree with Robbie here. I think it's not only the parents right but a duty to bring up their children with the spiritual beliefs and morals that they see fit. If you want to raise your kids Atheist or Catholic or Heathen or JW then by all means do so. Ultimately they will make their own choices when they're old enough anyhow but at least a parent can give them what they believe to be the correct foundation.

I disagree; depending upon the amount of brainwashing they've been exposed to, many children will not "make their own choices" when they "grow up". Moreover though I acknowledge that there's little one can do to police the moral values parents try to instill into their kids, that doesn't mean parents have any sort of "duty" to fill their heads with the rot that was forced down their own throats as a child. It is a basic duty to ensure the kids grow up to be respectful, tolerant, educated, and productive members of society. On the other hand, ensuring lifelong belief in some magic man in the sky that HATES types of persons X,Y,Z , degrading their facility for critical thought, and keeping them in perpetual fear of some comic book Satan is not a basic duty; and unless we regard kids as property I fail to see how it can even be a right.

Originally posted by Agerg
I disagree; depending upon the amount of brainwashing they've been exposed to, many children will not "make their own choices" when they "grow up". Moreover though I acknowledge that there's little one can do to police the moral values parents try to instill into their kids, that doesn't mean parents have any sort of "duty" to fill their heads with the rot tha ...[text shortened]... c duty; and unless we regard kids as property I fail to see how it can even be a right.

You're a sad, cynical, warped individual. You would take away a parents rights to pass on their religous beliefs on to their children? So what then, it's the governments job to intervene into families to ensure that children are raised as atheists?

I say live and let live. If a family wishes to pass along it's religion as it's heritage to it's children and grandchildren I say more power to them as long as the obey the laws of the society that the live in.

Originally posted by Ullr
You're a sad, cynical, warped individual. You would take away a parents rights to pass on their religous beliefs on to their children? So what then, it's the governments job to intervene into families to ensure that children are raised as atheists?

I say live and let live. If a family wishes to pass along it's religion as it's heritage to it's children an ...[text shortened]... dren I say more power to them as long as the obey the laws of the society that the live in.

Explain warped please (I disagree with the other two but I at least understand what you were trying to communicate).

If we were to follow your logic then racist parents have a right and duty to force their own prejudicial hatred onto the minds of youngsters who have not yet reached an age to rationally decide for themselves whether the worth of a person is defined by their ethnicity or colour of skin. Religion (no not belief in gods - religion), especially with the monotheistic ones, is the imposition on a person's mind that an entity which by rights cannot logically be defined can be articulated in detail through the writings of primitive man. Along with the attendant sophistication of their moral values.
In its fundamentalist form, it is the imposition that some magic person in the sky demands one does X, Y, Z and refrain from U, V, W, that they are intrinsically worthless until they have faith in this character, and that all those who have failed in this endeavour are somehow flawed or immoral, and of course that anything which contradicts their dogma is evil. It stifles rational thought and compels otherwise rational and well grounded people to commit attrocities.


Where did I even imply the government should step in to enforce that children become atheists btw, or should I say what leaps of `logic' compelled you to infer it!?

Originally posted by Agerg
Explain warped please (I disagree with the other two but I at least understand what you were trying to communicate).

If we were to follow your logic then racist parents have a right and duty to force their own prejudicial hatred onto the minds of youngsters who have not yet reached an age to rationally decide for themselves whether the worth of a person is hildren become atheists btw, or should I say what leaps of `logic' compelled you to infer it!?

I used the word warped because of some of the comments you just made. You're bringing racism into the discussion where it didn't exist before. When did I or anyone else on this thread imply that it's okay for parents to instill racism into their children? There are laws in my country and yours as well I'm sure that deal with racism and as I said it is the right and duty for parents to instill their values, spirituality, morals, etc. into their children provided they are obeying the laws of the society they live in. Clearly if they are raising their children to be racist they are raising their children to not obey the laws of society.

This statement by you previously:
"I fail to see how it can even be a right."

regarding parents instilling their religious beliefs into their children seemed to imply to me that you believe it should not be the parents right to do so. Well they have that right now and to take it away would require government intervention would it not?

Originally posted by Ullr
I used the word warped because of some of the comments you just made. You're bringing racism into the discussion where it didn't exist before. When did I or anyone else on this thread imply that it's okay for parents to instill racism into their children? There are laws in my country and yours as well I'm sure that deal with racism and as I said it is the ri ave that right now and to take it away would require government intervention would it not?

Well strangely, I had already guessed that some of the comments I made led you to accuse me of being warped - I do not see this reply as an adequate explanation of your meaning.

Racism is implicit when you combine the history of mankind and its treatment towards, for example, black people (slavery), the promotion of slavery, oppression, and intolerence towards heathens and false god worshippers (et al) in the Bible, the demographics of alternate belief systems, and brainwashed humans who read the OT with zero thought as to the fecked up nature of the ancient barbaric humans who wrote these books (because "God" wrote it!). It is implicit when you fail to temper the statement

"I think it's not only the parents right but a duty to bring up their children with the spiritual beliefs and morals that they see fit."

with any caveats or exceptions.

I had to live and breathe racism throughout my upbringing, I was brought up on a rough and racist council estate - The convention of the society I was brought up in expected me to despise Asians (you can probably guess how I was meant to refer to them). It wasn't my parents that promoted this - it was the parents of those who were my peers, those who had a "right" to bring them up to be good little haters. When I wasn't being bullied for being a skinny "swot" (i.e. performed much better academically than most), I was expected to cheer for "us" when the racist battles (and I really do mean battles) took place at my school. Muslims were "defined" to be evil - and no doubt by many `Christian' parents. Interestingly I reconnected with a few of them (who sought me out) last year through facebook and their prejudices live on as strong as they ever have been. I've since severed all connections.

As regards your extrapolation that I think that the government should step in to stamp out religion I was merely disagreeing with you that it is a "right" of parents to spoon feed their children with delusion. Similarly I don't think it's your "right" to own a helicopter, or your "right" to be Harvard/Cambridge/etc... educated, does that mean I will try and force the government to prevent you from having a helicopter or going to top universities??? 😕

Originally posted by Agerg
Well strangely, I had already guessed that some of the comments I made led you to accuse me of being warped - I do not see this reply as an adequate explanation of your meaning.

Racism is implicit when you combine the history of mankind and its treatment towards, for example, black people (slavery), the promotion of slavery, oppression, and intoleren ...[text shortened]... prevent you from having a helicopter or going to top universities??? 😕

Okay you're not warped then, just slightly disturbed.

"with any caveats or exceptions."

No that's not what I said. If you read what I said, you'll see that I said "provided it obey's the laws of society". Raising your kids to be racist is raising them to not obey the laws of society. I think a parent should be held somewhat accountable if they're kid is going to school and bullying some other kid for racial reasons. Raising your child a Christian in this day and age certainly does not imply that you are raising them racist despite any historical problems that have occurred which incidentally may have occurred with or without Christianity for all we know. Trust me there are plenty of non-Christians in the US that are racist.

I certainly also agree that a parent, if they are inclined to raise their children religous, should present the religous material to their children with an objective view and with healthy skepticism. However, that's just my view and I don't see it as my place nor yours to impose that approach on others or really even criticize someone if they choose to raise their child as a faithful JW for example. And I walk the walk too. I am one that has not imposed my religion on my children. I'm a heathen but I've allowed my daughters to become confirmed Catholics as that was their choice. Whether or not they wish to be active, practicing Catholics in their lifetime is up to them. If they want to learn about heathenry, I'll gladly explain although I'll warn them that it is a religion that promises no salvation, doesn't require forgiveness, and assumes personal responsibility.

Originally posted by Agerg
I disagree; depending upon the amount of brainwashing they've been exposed to, many children will not "make their own choices" when they "grow up". Moreover though I acknowledge that there's little one can do to police the moral values parents try to instill into their kids, that doesn't mean parents have any sort of "duty" to fill their heads with the rot tha ...[text shortened]... c duty; and unless we regard kids as property I fail to see how it can even be a right.

Suppose your 3 kids upon turning 18 decide to believe in this "..magic man in the sky that HATES types of persons X,Y,Z..". How would you react ?

Originally posted by Ullr
Okay you're not warped then, just slightly disturbed.

"with any caveats or exceptions."

No that's not what I said. If you read what I said, you'll see that I said "provided it obey's the laws of society". Raising your kids to be racist is raising them to not obey the laws of society. I think a parent should be held somewhat accountable if they're kid i no salvation, doesn't require forgiveness, and assumes personal responsibility.

"Slightly disturbed" though a step down from "warped", still suggests I'm a potential ticking time bomb ready to do something harmful to myself or others in the future - this requires substantiation. Yes I have strong opinions - Yes I have a strong disliking towards religion and the suffering/divisions it has caused throughout history and the present - I will make no effort to be respectful to a person's abrahamic (or otherwise defined) godReveal Hidden Content(since I'm absolutely sureReveal Hidden ContentI'm referring to an imaginary entity) - Yes I don't hide my support for atheists and agnostics who seek to undermine and cheapen the batchit crazy fundamentalist dogma religious zealots here and out in the real world try to force upon others. I don't see how that deserves the label "disturbed".

I'll step down on the racist point - I notice that it was the final words on the last line of your response (where you called me sad, cynical, and warped) where you made that exception prior to me introducing that argument in my next - I didn't see it.

Many Christian moderates probably aren't racist, but then their beliefs hardly identify with the concerns and interpretations of scripture I am bringing to the table. On the other hand, organised religion serves as a staging ground and a web of support for the fundies who will become racist (because they are blindly following "God"'s inerrant words). I have no problem with people believing in their own little gods and so on but when this is done en-masse under a common banner through the writings of a 2000+ year old book without question then I have a problem with it. Though I acknowledge your right to disagree with the idea that I should be able to express my opposition towards perpetuating fundamentalist dogma, I see no reason why I should therefore zip my lips on this issue. I have made no insinuation that religion should be forcibly denied to the kids of religious people but I'll bloody well voice my concerns about this practice of brainwashing if for no reason other than some small effort to undermine it's general acceptance.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Suppose your 3 kids upon turning 18 decide to believe in this "..magic man in the sky that HATES types of persons X,Y,Z..". How would you react ?

Kicking myself for my failure to communicate the value of skepticism; should they ever mention their beliefs in my presence I would do my very best to ensure that they be the ones walking away with their tails between their legs and intellectually shamed as they dream up other ways to defend their crazy-ass position and `put me in my place'. Otherwise I would act as I always would in said hypothetical situation - be a nice bloke and good father.

To this end, my little brother knows better than to mention religion when I'm about, my mum no longer offers to read my star signs, some of my good christian friends silence their friends if they even look as though they want to start a conversation about "God" when I'm present, and finally any fundie who dares to darken my doors peddling "God" is always (barring, if I recall, one exception when I had more important things to be getting on with) welcomed inside for a brew and a friendly "chat" about their faith ;]

Originally posted by Agerg
Kicking myself for my failure to communicate the value of skepticism; should they ever mention their beliefs in my presence I would do my very best to ensure that they be the ones walking away with their tails between their legs and intellectually shamed as they dream up other ways to defend their crazy-ass position and `put me in my place'. Otherwise I would ...[text shortened]... getting on with) welcomed inside for a brew and a friendly "chat" about their faith ;]

So basically you accept that people are entitled to their beliefs without being persecuted. [Note the discussions you describe, does not count as persecution]. However in some of your recent posts you came across (subtly) as the kind of individual, which if given the authority/power, would make life difficult for God-fearing people.

Originally posted by Rajk999
So basically you accept that people are entitled to their beliefs without being persecuted. [Note the discussions you describe, does not count as persecution]. However in some of your recent posts you came across (subtly) as the kind of individual, which if given the authority/power, would make life difficult for God-fearing people.

Oooh...what would agerg do if he was in power!?...

If I had any real influence over the education system, science teachers would be made mercifully aware that they need not stifle their requirement to correct (no not the cat o' nine tails or the boot etc...) any student who advances the Genesis theory of creation or intelligent design in the science classroom. Religious education, if it couldn't be demoted to an extra curricular activity, would include, for the sake of historical and cultural integrity, all the obscure gods that history has abandoned, and with a strong recommendation that no bias (positive or negative) be tendered to any particular god or gods, and intelligent design would be noticably laughed out of the application process for entry into the curriculum.

As for anywhere else so long as the law and basic requirements for decency and respect for humans and their sanctuary are upheld (i.e. no mobs terrorising churches, picketing religious funerals etc...), political correctness would be a non issue for those who wish to challenge religion (and of course for those who wish to defend their faith also (who seem to already enjoy that privelige anyway!)). Religious organisations would be required to justify their `charity' status with respect to tax exemptions (and the extent to which they advocate a literalist interpretation of scripture would weigh in on that matter (since shutting down critical thought is "anti-charitable" as far as I'm concerned)), and any organisation, individual, or groups of people (theist or non-theist) promoting hatred, exploitation, or intolerance would be shut down/expelled permanently (and no - any groups outwardly portraying fundamentalist dogma as a lighthouse for stupid thinking (for example) would not be seen to be inciting hatred or intolerance; the same groups advocating beatings, murders, burnings, theft, and deconversion through torture etc... would!).


Oh and prison would become a shyte place to be once more (no not torture or the death penalty) - plenty of savings to be made there I wager!


Vote for agerg...you know it makes sense! ;]

Originally posted by Agerg
I disagree; depending upon the amount of brainwashing they've been exposed to, many children will not "make their own choices" when they "grow up". Moreover though I acknowledge that there's little one can do to police the moral values parents try to instill into their kids, that doesn't mean parents have any sort of "duty" to fill their heads with the rot tha ...[text shortened]... c duty; and unless we regard kids as property I fail to see how it can even be a right.

clearly you are not a parent and if you are then i am calling social services. The role of a parent in instilling values in a child is to help the youngster exercise their own consciences, that is why i resent these vile insinuations. Your assertions of hatred, scaremongering and whatever other fantasies you fuel your prejudices with is your business, but they clearly betray the thoughts of someone with neither scriptural knowledge nor of the practical implications of raising children in a society with increasingly diminishing standards of morality, fuelled no doubt by ludicrous liberal secularism and an abandonment of traditional family values.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
clearly you are not a parent and if you are then i am calling social services. The role of a parent in instilling values in a child is to help the youngster exercise their own consciences, that is why i resent these vile insinuations. Your assertions of hatred, scaremongering and whatever other fantasies you fuel your prejudices with is your busine ...[text shortened]... uelled no doubt by ludicrous liberal secularism and an abandonment of traditional family values.

You'd call social services because I wouldn't teach them about magic invisible friends or Satan???

Fundamentalist religion & morality??? How many dogs had to die for mr Campings delusions eh? How many children are going to be rooting bins for their next meal because of delusional dipchit parents who squandered all their savings for the rapture eh? How many people live in trembling fear they are worthless sinners walking the thin line between God's right hand and the burning fires of hell? How many people will line up and volunteer to be fleeced for every penny they have because of a-hole faith healers? How many people deprive their children of an opportunity to make something of themselves by retarding their education with creationist garbage? How many people genuinely believe a fecking antichrist is coming to stage its final battle before 2050 (or whatever)? How many people are going to be blown to smithereens this year for some bearded fecking sky fairy!? morality & religion!!? Don't make me laugh! ;]

It's the year 2011 and it's about time humanity threw away the vile shackles of fundamentalist dogma.

Originally posted by Agerg
You'd call social services because I don't teach them about magic invisible friends or Satan???

Fundamentalist religion & morality??? Don't make me laugh! ;]

I'd call social services for clearly you are ill equipped to bring up children, look at your prejudices for goodness sake, they condemn any child to a selfish and unhappy existence. why? for happy are those conscious of their spiritual need. If we followed your direction a child would have no sense of spirituality, would be prejudiced against trying to find it and left clueless as to any questions regarding spirituality. What is more, i see my kids and they are really happy and balanced, they love life, and yet they have a sense of what is acceptable and what is not simply because we made a real effort in inculcating the role of conscience which is fundamental to discernment. Are you denying that this is a worthwhile endeavour? no? well shut up-a-yo-face already!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I'd call social services for clearly you are ill equipped to bring up children, look at your prejudices for goodness sake, they condemn any child to a selfish and unhappy existence. why? for happy are those conscious of their spiritual need. If we followed your direction a child would have no sense of spirituality, would be prejudiced against tryi ...[text shortened]... ent. Are you denying that this is a worthwhile endeavour? no? well shut up-a-yo-face already!

Here's a fact for you, spirituality isn't defined by religion. You define it as such because you only have god coloured spectacles. There is way more scope for spirituality out there in the world than your poundshop god and religion.