Spirituality
28 Jun 08
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadWhat's your understanding of the planks and specks verse?
You don't sound too sure. Worried that TOO will call you on it again?
The only verses I know about planks and specks certainly say nothing about not knowing things intellectually. But then I admit I don't know many verses and don't have one of those decoder ring thingys.
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterInteresting how decoder rings modify the text. Even more interesting is how different rings make different modifications.
John 8:32-36 - You missed out the bit about " and if the Son sets you free you shall be free indeed " Oooops!
For once I looked up the passage, and from what I can tell, Jesus is saying that he is telling the truth, and that his message (the truth) will set people free and that those who listen can be identified by their actions.
What is your interpretation?
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadI was merely pointing out that ToO had missed out part of the verse.
Interesting how decoder rings modify the text. Even more interesting is how different rings make different modifications.
For once I looked up the passage, and from what I can tell, Jesus is saying that he is telling the truth, and that his message (the truth) will set people free and that those who listen can be identified by their actions.
What is your interpretation?
The interesting thing about this verse is that Jesus does not say "you will set yourselves free" or "my commandments will set you free" , he actually says "the Son sets you free". You then have to relate this to the rest of his teachings regarding his death , remission of sin, the Holy Spirit and start to think whether he was alluding to something more.
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterAs I said, your decoder ring is working full strength. You take a tiny bit of a passage, ignore the rest, then magnify the tiny bit you chose, reinterpret it etc.
I was merely pointing out that ToO had missed out part of the verse.
The interesting thing about this verse is that Jesus does not say "you will set yourselves free" or "my commandments will set you free" , he actually says "the Son sets you free". You then have to relate this to the rest of his teachings regarding his death , remission of sin, the Holy Spirit and start to think whether he was alluding to something more.
TOO does exactly the same, but comes up with a different answer.
I suspect that his interpretation is far closer to what an uninterpreted reading would give (and he does use more verses).
What would be really fun would be for the two of you to swap decoder rings. 🙂
What I find interesting, disturbing and funny all at the same time, is the fact that not one Christian can tell me a reliable way of reading/interpreting the Bible that will yield the same answer whoever tries it. You have I think tried to sidestep that problem by claiming that it is possible that God intends different answers for different people, but that still leaves the problem of the different answers being incompatible with each other.
What is most odd about it all is that nobody seems to want to address the issue head on, and so many people are quite happy decoding away with their personal ring quite oblivious to the fact that the resultant decoded text is practically guaranteed to be wrong.
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01 Jul 08
Originally posted by UzumakiAiYou are very close to what I think the bible teaches. We will have a sinful nature until Christ returns. We also have the new nature forever. So for now, we have two natures. As some one once said, it is like two dogs fighting inside of me. When asked which one wins, the answer was....the one you feed. We can feed the sin nature with the things of the world, ie. lust, greed, etc., or we can feed the new nature with the things of God.
I have a bit of a problem with that. I have known plenty of trees. None of them were good or bad. They produced good and bad fruit. They preformed better based on what they were given. Fertilizer, water, humidity, region, and type of plant, went into deciding how good the fruit produced was. And furthermore, I know people who have liked fruit that I though ...[text shortened]... e that a god with any true depth of knowledge would construct such a weak one, metaphor or not.
One nature can dominate the other while we await the return of Christ. Thus the differing levels of "spirituality"....🙂
01 Jul 08
7 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterAre you incapable of making an honest post? It's not like I've never addressed that statement (at least a few times), yet you try to portray me as being deceitful for not including it. It's a child's tactic. I left it out simply because it wasn't germaine to the discussion.
John 8:32-36 - You missed out the bit about " and if the Son sets you free you shall be free indeed " Oooops!
So, to set the record straight, I'll explain this yet again. Why do you play this game?
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
At the beginning of this line of thought, Jesus establishes his premise:
"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Note that it is "truth" borne of following the word of Jesus that makes you free.
Jesus establishes who must be set free:
"...everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
Note that it is "everyone who commits sin".
Jesus establishes the consequences of not being set free:
"The slave does not remain in the house forever;"
Note that a slave is "everyone who commits sin".
Jesus summarizes by emphasizing the efficacy of following his word:
"So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."
Note the use of the word "so" as in "therefore". It is an indication of a continuation of a single line of thought.
With your interpretation, you have to believe that Jesus establishes a premise and then summarizes by contradicting himself.
No doubt, a week from now, you'll once again resort to bringing this up in order to distort my intentions. It's a real habit for you.
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterI think not. I could site theological reasons why it is impossible as long as we inhabit these flesh bodies, but easier is to site his arrogance found in his postings...arrogance is a sin.
Many of you by now will know of ThinkofOne's constant talk of how sin must be overcome in order to gain salvation. He supports this with familiar quotes from Jesus that I will not quote again because he has put them out there 100's of times.
You will also know that ToOne is quite a black and white fellow so I'm assuming that he means that sin must ...[text shortened]... course ask him yourself if he practices what he preaches but don't hold your breath)
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhat I find interesting is the passage makes a lot more sense if you don't capitalize the word 'Son'.
John 8:32-36 - You missed out the bit about " and if the Son sets you free you shall be free indeed " Oooops!
Jesus appears to be saying:
You can either be a slave (to sin) or a son. A slave is not a true member of the household and will not stay there forever, a son is a true member and will stay forever.
The references to Abraham etc also make me think that he is talking about being a slave to religion and law as in trying to follow it to the letter rather than in spirit, whereas a son would follow it in spirit but not necessarily to the letter.
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadRead my response to KM if you haven't.
What I find interesting is the passage makes a lot more sense if you don't capitalize the word 'Son'.
Jesus appears to be saying:
You can either be a slave (to sin) or a son. A slave is not a true member of the household and will not stay there forever, a son is a true member and will stay forever.
The references to Abraham etc also make me think that ...[text shortened]... er than in spirit, whereas a son would follow it in spirit but not necessarily to the letter.
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneJesus never said we can do those things on our own, nor does he say we will not still be in our flesh while our flesh lives. He says we will not be of flesh but of spirit. Paul says we war against our flesh because we are still in our flesh but not of flesh. You are not harmonizing scripture at all. That is why you don't understand what I am saying. You only take a few verses and go only by them. If it were the way you say then why would Paul speak of a war between the flesh and spirit?
These verses certainly weren't directed at the Scribes and Pharisees:
Matthew 7:21-23
[b]Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.... Depart from me, you who work iniquity.
John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If ...[text shortened]... to him, and make our abode with him. [b]He that loveth me not keepeth not my words"[/b]
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadIt seems much more likely that he is refering to himself with the phrase "and if the Son sets you free you shall be free indeed"
What I find interesting is the passage makes a lot more sense if you don't capitalize the word 'Son'.
Jesus appears to be saying:
You can either be a slave (to sin) or a son. A slave is not a true member of the household and will not stay there forever, a son is a true member and will stay forever.
The references to Abraham etc also make me think that ...[text shortened]... er than in spirit, whereas a son would follow it in spirit but not necessarily to the letter.
If you are right then who is this "son" that is supposed to set these slaves free?
01 Jul 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI have no intention of trying to distort anything you have said here. I havn't the time right now to respond properly but I will soonish.
Are you incapable of making an honest post? It's not like I've never addressed that statement (at least a few times), yet you try to portray me as being deceitful for not including it. It's a child's tactic. I left it out simply because it wasn't germaine to the discussion.
So, to set the record straight, I'll explain this yet again. Why do you play ...[text shortened]... in order to distort my intentions. It's a real habit for you.
The only thing I want to say right now is thank you for answering and responding openly to this. I say this with nothing but genuineness. All I have ever asked for is transparency and some open engagement with the issues. You have done this here so fair play to you. What can I say? These are the kind of discussions we need to be having on Jesus's words in order to create some joint understanding so I welcome your post.
My first instinct was that it was a deliberate omission but now I see that for you it is not as significant a statement as it is for me.
Please try to understand that my main beef with you has been when you seem to close down a discussion and not respond to questions. That 's all.
01 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by pritybettaJesus states that you cannot continue to sin and "be saved"/"have eternal life"/"enter heaven"/ etc. He says this several times and in several different ways. Jesus does not say to follow the Bible. Jesus does not say to follow Paul. Jesus does not say to "harmonize" his teachings with those of others. Jesus says to follow Him/His word/His commandments which He says are the will of God.
Jesus never said we can do those things on our own, nor does he say we will not still be in our flesh while our flesh lives. He says we will not be of flesh but of spirit. Paul says we war against our flesh because we are still in our flesh but not of flesh. You are not harmonizing scripture at all. That is why you don't understand what I am saying. You o ...[text shortened]... em. If it were the way you say then why would Paul speak of a war between the flesh and spirit?
"Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' but not do what I command?"
Jesus brought a beautiful message of truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. His words ring true.
01 Jul 08
3 edits
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhy the pretense that I've never addressed this before? I've posted something similar on a few occasions. Are you incapable of making an honest post?
I have no intention of trying to distort anything you have said here. I havn't the time right now to respond properly but I will soonish.
The only thing I want to say right now is thank you for answering and responding openly to this. I say this with nothing but genuineness. All I have ever asked for is transparency and some open engagement with t has been when you seem to close down a discussion and not respond to questions. That 's all.
I close down discussions because I have to constantly battle lies, half-truths and distortions. You also seem unable to think logically. How do you expect someone to have a rational discussion with you when they have to deal with all that? You want what you want and you'll resort to any tactic in an attempt to get it. From what I can tell, truth has little place in the world of KM. I hope that someday this changes.
02 Jul 08
1 edit
Guys 'n Gals--it's a denominational war we're in here. The Pentecostals/Holiness/Four Square churches believe that we puny humans CAN become sinless (perfect) in THIS life. Most mainline denominations reject this. Since I have no more chance of changing a person's religious beliefs than anyone else here has, we should all agree to disagree, sing Kum-Bye-Yah, read I'
m O.K. You're O.K. and have a big ol' group hug. Whaddya say? 😵🙂