04 Jul 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI'm not abandonong the words of Jesus; just pointing out that my "religious training" has taught me to respect and aspire to fulfil the words of Paul as well, and Peter, James, John, Mark, Luke,....
The words of Jesus are the words of Jesus. It's unfortunate that the "Christian faith" has largely abandoned the teachings of Jesus, thus building a house without a foundation.
Luke 6:46-49
Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say?
Everyone who comes to me, and hears [b]my words, and does them, I will show you who he ...[text shortened]... st which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.[/b]
04 Jul 08
Originally posted by twhiteheadJesus on the other hand never made any such moves, being a Jew himself he obviously thought that the Jews were Gods chosen people and everyone else didn't really matter that much.
Feel free to amaze me - if you know the reason and are willing to share.
Keep in mind of course that my post was not talking about the formation of the Christian Church in the first century.
My guess at the reason why Paul played a dominant role back then was the fact that he wanted Christianity to become available to non-Jews. Again, that is a much ...[text shortened]... thought that the Jews were Gods chosen people and everyone else didn't really matter that much.
----whitey--------
Now I know that you have absolutely no idea who Jesus really was and what he stood for!!!!! A slightly assumptive and bigoted statement I might add.
04 Jul 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYou don't understand it's not about me, I want to please God and follow Jesus . I want to live a life of compassion and truth. Most of the time I do and I am able to live the life that Jesus requires , but I make mistakes as well.
Why is it about what you want?
The other day I was out walking my dog and some teenagers (who had been drinking and were a bit threatening) came up to me in the woods. They took the mickey and teased my dog but remembering what Jesus commanded I turned the other cheek and offered them a sweet and some chocolate. I was really trying to offer them kindness and compassion and in my heart I knew it wasn't because I wanted the "reward" of salvation but because I felt something for them. I guessed that a few of them were out that late because their home lives were probably unhappy. The area I was in is reknowned for broken homes and violence.
So in the middle of this one of the lads tried to set fire to my dogs tail. He screamed in pain and I felt angry and upset for the dog. In an unchristian moment I swore at the lad (sin) but he then apologised and so did I for swearing.
However ,I am aware that I was not offering 100% compassion to these lads and that I had sinned . If I had been Jesus I might have been able to respend differently , but for a few seconds I lost the plot a bit because I was caught up in the dog's pain. I was not able to walk away from that incident and say to myself " I have overcome sin".
So again I ask what am I to do? Should I not care at all that I have not overcome sin and that I am not following Jesus perfectly ? Maybe I'm being selfish in wondering whether God will throw me into the eternal furnace? Mind you I think I'm entitled to some assurances and some feeling of compassion from God otherwise I will find myself living in fear of damnation. I don't know.
04 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by knightmeisterKM "You don't understand it's not about me, I want to please God and follow Jesus . I want to live a life of compassion and truth."
You don't understand it's not about me, I want to please God and follow Jesus . I want to live a life of compassion and truth. Most of the time I do and I am able to live the life that Jesus requires , but I make mistakes as well.
The other day I was out walking my dog and some teenagers (who had been drinking and were a bit threatening) came up sion from God otherwise I will find myself living in fear of damnation. I don't know.
KM "Mind you I think I'm entitled to some assurances and some feeling of compassion from God otherwise I will find myself living in fear of damnation."
You continue to talk out both sides of your mouth. Why is it about what you want?
04 Jul 08
Originally posted by PinkFloydYou said, "the teachings of Paul ARE the teachings of Jesus".
I'm not abandonong the words of Jesus; just pointing out that my "religious training" has taught me to respect and aspire to fulfil the words of Paul as well, and Peter, James, John, Mark, Luke,....
Unfortunately many of the teachings of Paul are extrapolations of the teachings of Jesus or, even worse, contrary to the teachings of Jesus.
If you fail to make the distinction between the teachings of Paul and the teachings of Jesus, it can only result in the abandonment of the words of Jesus.
05 Jul 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneBut, if I am able to discern when Paul is correctly teaching what Jesus taught (as opposed to the times when he goes off "on his own"😉, then I'm on solid theological ground, right?
You said, "the teachings of Paul ARE the teachings of Jesus".
Unfortunately many of the teachings of Paul are extrapolations of the teachings of Jesus or, even worse, contrary to the teachings of Jesus.
If you fail to make the distinction between the teachings of Paul and the teachings of Jesus, it can only result in the abandonment of the words of Jesus.
05 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneYou are so right I have become sidetracked by a completely stupid selfish desire to not go to the furnace of hell forever. My ego has got in the way.
KM "You don't understand [b]it's not about me, I want to please God and follow Jesus . I want to live a life of compassion and truth."
KM "Mind you I think I'm entitled to some assurances and some feeling of compassion from God otherwise I will find myself living in fear of damnation."
You continue to talk out both sides of your mouth. Why is it about what you want?[/b]
The thing I most want is for others to be free and be saved. The love and compassion inside me yearns for others to know the truth and to live a life of peace following Jesus. I hate the thought of people going to hell and not being saved so I want to help them and see them saved.
But this is still very troubling for me. You tell me that your Jesus commands that we must overcome sin (100% according to you) in order to have any chance. You see all the things I have mentioned about the dog walk in the wood , the stray glance at a woman , losing his temper for a few seconds at his children . These are all really concerning my friend and not me. He was too embarrassed to say. He is not concerned about God not loving him and sending him to hell for his sin . He really doesn't care because all he cares about it others. He has no regard at all for his own salvation. He is so selfless.
He's a great bloke who would help anyone. He's done loads for charity and is regarded highly as someone who you can trust. He never lies and always tries to love others and help out them first (almost to a fault where he forgets that he has needs and he gets really tired out). I am concerned though that he is not perfect and that every now and then he is prone to the odd sin and mistake (like the one with his kids and the dog).
I do so hate the thought of him and others like him burning in hell. He loves Jesus with all his heart , but these occasional lapses let him down. He's not concerned about it because as long as he saves others he's happy. But I am. I care about him and his eternal suffering , so I like to think that God understands him and sees his loving heart and so is able to overlook his lack of perfection and his occasional sin (which he always confesses and asks for forgiveness). Is this so ? How can I re-assure myself about him?
He seems to be following Jesus very earnestly with all his heart and mind but his human nature just gets in the way on occasions. What do I do? I wake up in a cold sweat thinking about him suffering in hell because he wasn't able to be 100% christ like ALL the time.What's more I worry about all other people and you as well ToO. I obviously have no concern about me because I am of no relevance at all and to have even a fleeting thought about how I might suffer is obviously selfish and egotistical of me. But my friend? Can you help? Is Jesus so perfectionist that even the smallest sin is unacceptable? Or does he know that we are made of clay and takes that into account?
You see my friend when he was in the woods and that lad set fire to the dog's tail did get very angry and swore but after that passed he calmed down and tried in compassion to help the kid see that the dog was hurting and that really he was just trying to make the dog feel scared so that he could feel powerful himself. The kid started to cry and my friend held him tenderly , it sounded like a beautiful moment . In the end it turned out the kid was being beaten badly by his father and my friend played a central role in getting social services to help the lad. But it's just that one sin that bothers me , despite all that I can't re-assure myself that my friend has overcome sin as you say he must.
05 Jul 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterYou act like a fool who thinks people here are in charge of who enters the fantasy fairyland of heaven and hell.
You are so right I have become sidetracked by a completely stupid selfish desire to not go to the furnace of hell forever. My ego has got in the way.
The thing I most want is for others to be free and be saved. The love and compassion inside me yearns for others to know the truth and to live a life of peace following Jesus. I hate the thought o ...[text shortened]... all that I can't re-assure myself that my friend has overcome sin as you say he must.
05 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by PinkFloydDo you believe Jesus?
But, if I am able to discern when Paul is correctly teaching what Jesus taught (as opposed to the times when he goes off "on his own"😉, then I'm on solid theological ground, right?
John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven"
05 Jul 08
Originally posted by knightmeisterWhy the pretense?
You are so right I have become sidetracked by a completely stupid selfish desire to not go to the furnace of hell forever. My ego has got in the way.
The thing I most want is for others to be free and be saved. The love and compassion inside me yearns for others to know the truth and to live a life of peace following Jesus. I hate the thought o ...[text shortened]... all that I can't re-assure myself that my friend has overcome sin as you say he must.
05 Jul 08
2 edits
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOk , so it's a hypothetical situation but entirely realistic and reasonable. But if it were a real situation what would your answer be?
Why the pretense?
Have you no response or answer?
I do know people (and I'm sure you do) who are very similar to my "friend" who have not overcome sin in it's entirety. What hope do you hold for them?
As of yet you have not......
a) defined what sin is in your outlook
b) defined "overcome sin" (does it mean 100% or not?)
c) told me of any examples of anyone (including yourself) who have actually overcome sin.
d) demonstrated how your personal interpretation of Jesus' teachings apply to real life in general.
It feels as if you are waiting for someone to ask you these questions in a "perfect" manner before you will even consider a meaningful response. Is this an evasion tactic or are you really that intolerant and perfectionist about people?
05 Jul 08
Originally posted by josephwA good point . I have provided ToO with a real life context in which he could choose to make his position relevant and show how it pans out in the real world of people and events.
A text without a context is a pretense.
You quote verses and assign meaning without the context from which they appear all the time.
You are the master of pretense.
I'm not going to pre-judge too much but I suspect his answers will continue to be vague and abstract. I hope they will not be so , but the evidence so far is that his position may well remain nebulus and hard to pin down.
Thus , even if he is right in what he says it would be a truth that would be impossible to apply because it will remain a work in progress or computer model.
05 Jul 08
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneDo you believe Jesus?
Do you believe Jesus?
John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven"
John 8:31
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."
Matthew 7:21
"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven
05 Jul 08
Originally posted by WWindmillVoicing your opinions is not the same as debating. This forum is here for the purpose of debate, not for name calling. No one will take you seriously if you continue to behave like a spoiled child. I know it's difficult, but you should learn how to disengage your emotions when replying to posts made by those who have beliefs different from yours.
You act like a fool who thinks people here are in charge of who enters the fantasy fairyland of heaven and hell.