Originally posted by PinkFloyd
Guys 'n Gals--it's a denominational war we're in here. The Pentecostals/Holiness/Four Square churches believe that we puny humans CAN become sinless (perfect) in THIS life. Most mainline denominations reject this. Since I have no more chance of changing a person's religious beliefs than anyone else here has, we should all agree to disagree, sing Kum-Bye ...[text shortened]... ah, read I'
m O.K. You're O.K. and have a big ol' group hug. Whaddya say? 😵🙂

LOL ... but I'm in!

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Why the pretense that I've never addressed this before? I've posted something similar on a few occasions. Are you incapable of making an honest post?

I close down discussions because I have to constantly battle lies, half-truths and distortions. You also seem unable to think logically. How do you expect someone to have a rational discussion with you wh what I can tell, truth has little place in the world of KM. I hope that someday this changes.

It seems as if any mutual trust has broken down between us . It's hard to put any feeling into words on a screen. There was no pretence because I can't always remember what you have posted previously. All I can say is that it was the first time in a while I had seen you respond like this , although you have said similar things.

I think we may have got to the stage of mutual paranoia where it's impossible to read each others posts without reading into it some kind of subterfuge or deceit. My intention was to respond warmly to the simple honesty of your recent post because it helped me to understand your position more. I understand it is difficult for you to believe I am not being deceitful.

I can see the way you read these passages , but since language is often obscure and open to interpretation it's difficult to be sure what Jesus is saying exactly.

A few things stand out for me....

1) Jesus says that they "will" know the truth suggesting some future point of realisation and understanding. Jesus later suggests himself that the truth is not yet complete and that he has more to say "more than you can bear"

2) "Continue in my word" could mean continue in my teachings (which were on going) . "Continue" also suggests future learning and teachings.

3) The preceeding verses involve Jesus trying to get the Jews to recognise who he was and he talks of them either "knowing him" or not knowing him.

4) Jesus never exactly says what the "truth" is only that they will know the truth and that the truth is not complete at this time. This is supported by other statements "he , the comforter, will guide you into all truth"

"If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."

One could translate the above as "If you keep learning from my teachings and continue on with me then you will come to know the truth about me and who I am and what I am going to do for humanity (ie the Son shall set you free)"

5) He could have easily said "if my commandments set you free then you will be free indeed" but he didn't , he said the Son makes you free rather than the commandments of the Son.

Originally posted by knightmeister
It seems as if any mutual trust has broken down between us . It's hard to put any feeling into words on a screen. There was no pretence because I can't always remember what you have posted previously. All I can say is that it was the first time in a while I had seen you respond like this , although you have said similar things.

I think we may have he said the Son makes you free rather than the commandments of the Son.

Are you so far removed from truth that it is impossible for you to even glimpse things as they are?

For several months your aim has been to discredit me by any means possible - by lying, telling half-truths, distorting my position, etc. Pretty much anytime I post in this forum you do so - yet you claim you "don't follow [me] around". To top it off, you start a "petty", "vindictive" and "trashy" (other peoples words) thread like this - yet you claim entitlement.

Now you try to spin it as "mutual paranoia" and that "any mutual trust has broken down".

You have a serious case of denial.

Your hatred continues to get the best of you.

What is it that you hate so much?

Would it really be so terrible if everyone followed the will of God, i.e., lived a life of truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. as Jesus commands?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Are you so far removed from truth that it is impossible for you to even glimpse things as they are?

For several months your aim has been to discredit me by any means possible - by lying, telling half-truths, distorting my position, etc. Pretty much anytime I post in this forum you do so - yet you claim you "don't follow [me] around". To top it off, you ...[text shortened]... od, i.e., lived a life of truth, love, compassion, justice, etc. as Jesus commands?

I yearn for peace and justice. I want a world of compassion and truth. I reckon if we discussed many political / social issues we would find that we agree on many things. I am a pacifist who thinks invading Iraq was wrong. I can't stand GW. I don't like capitalists who exploit the third world. I think the media often stinks and distorts the truth. I think people should be honest in their dealings with each other and up front. I'm right with you regarding the bigotry in the church about homosexuality. I also think truth is a hard path that requires looking in the mirror with brutal honesty. I think spiritual truth is more than just an intellectual position and should be lived. Jesus had little time for those who talked the talk but did not walk the walk.

If you ask me what I hate then it is hypocrisy. I also hate a lack of transparency and honesty. I think a straight question should produce a straight answer.

My thoughts on God is that he has been grossly misrepresented and that elements of his judgement , righteousness , perfection have overshadowed his forgiveness , love and compassion.

So having said all this my reflections on your response is this. Unfortunately the issue in hand has not been discussed and my points on Jesus' words in the previous post have been ...well.... ignored or sidetepped. It just seems for me that this experience keeps repeating itself. No matter what I say or do or how I approach things the basic point never seems to get addressed. I try using personal experience , scripture , Jewish culture , logic , analysis of language and from the start my experience is that a big wall is placed in front of me.

So do you have any response to my points about what Jesus said?

I can only share with you what my experience is of you. You can make of it what you will. I only ask you to consider that I am not alone in this experience.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I yearn for peace and justice. I want a world of compassion and truth. I reckon if we discussed many political / social issues we would find that we agree on many things. I am a pacifist who thinks invading Iraq was wrong. I can't stand GW. I don't like capitalists who exploit the third world. I think the media often stinks and distorts the truth. I th make of it what you will. I only ask you to consider that I am not alone in this experience.

If you want truth, then you'll be glad to embrace the truth in the teachings of Jesus:

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, 'You will become free'?"
Jesus answered them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

Your "points" ignore the text in bold which is main point of Jesus in this line of thought. Everything else revolves around this central theme.

It is a theme that is repeated often in the teachings of Jesus.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.

John 14:23-24
Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words"

Luke 6:46-49
Why do you call me,'Lord, Lord,' and don't do the things which I say? Everyone who comes to me, and hears my words, and does them, I will show you who he is like.He is like a man building a house, who dug and went deep, and laid a foundation on the rock. When a flood arose, the stream broke against that house, and could not shake it, because it was founded on the rock.But he who hears, and doesn't do, is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream broke, and immediately it fell, and the ruin of that house was great.



If you want truth, you'll come to see and love the beauty of the teachings of Jesus.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
It is a theme that is repeated often in the teachings of Jesus.

And don't forget the parable of the sheep and the goats which I believe was in response to a direct question on who gets into heaven.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jews being addressed by Jesus:
"We are Abraham's descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone;"

Did they mean that they personally had never been slaves or that the Jews as a race had never been slaves? I thought that the whole Egypt episode contradicts their claim.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you want truth, then you'll be glad to embrace the truth in the teachings of Jesus:

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never y ...[text shortened]... nt truth, you'll come to see and love the beauty of the teachings of Jesus.

Great Post.

Im begining to realise that some Christian sects wrongly preach that the teachings of Christ were not applicable after the Day of Pentecost when the apostles received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Hence the emphasis on Paul's teachings.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Great Post.

Im begining to realise that some Christian sects wrongly preach that the teachings of Christ were not applicable after the Day of Pentecost when the apostles received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Hence the emphasis on Paul's teachings.

I never heard that before. Do you have any references or a poster who agrees with you?

I always thought that the focus on Pauls writing was because Jesus' words were rather too hard to follow. I mean how many Christians actually give up all their belongings and follow Christ? Much easier to say "well were all sinners and we will make it to heaven if we simply believe in Jesus".

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you want truth, then you'll be glad to embrace the truth in the teachings of Jesus:

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never y ...[text shortened]... ruth, you'll come to see and love the beauty of the teachings of Jesus.

Your "points" ignore the text in bold which is main point of Jesus in this line of thought. Everything else revolves around this central theme. ---ToO----



I have no argument with Jesus commandments.
You have a particular perspective on his teachings and that's fine , but why do you feel the need to rule out any other ways of looking at things? You take certain words he says and emphasise them above others , I also look at other words and place more significance on them.

So why is your interpretation more valid than anyone else's?

For example John 14:23-24
Jesus answered and said unto him, "If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. He that loveth me not keepeth not my words"

You bolded these words not Jesus , I'm just as interested in what "make our abode with him " means. To me this is a reference to the Holy Spirit but you don't seem to want to discuss that.

It seems to me that you have a valid position based on emphasising certain verses and words over others. And that's Ok , but why can't you just own it as your position rather than claim it is self evident?

Do you arrive at your conclusions through just thinking about the verses or do you pray to Christ to reveal (guide you into) the truth to you via the Comforter as he commanded?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
If you want truth, then you'll be glad to embrace the truth in the teachings of Jesus:

John 8:32-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free." They answered Him, "We are Abraham's descendants and have never y ...[text shortened]... ruth, you'll come to see and love the beauty of the teachings of Jesus.

It is a theme that is repeated often in the teachings of Jesus---ToO---

There plenty of themes running through Jesus's teachings and I think they should all be discussed equally. Apparently , you seem to think that some themes deserve more emphasis than others. To me that's an interpretation and nothing more.

However , I do agree that there is a huge theme to do with integrity and the idea that actions speak louder than words. The left hand and the right hand should work together without hypocrisy , that's a huge theme for Jesus , which is why I thought it was relevent to ask you about your own personal struggle with/ victory over sin.

Originally posted by twhitehead
And don't forget the parable of the sheep and the goats which I believe was in response to a direct question on who gets into heaven.

That and many more. It's sad how so many profess belief in Jesus, yet don't believe His teachings.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Did they mean that they personally had never been slaves or that the Jews as a race had never been slaves? I thought that the whole Egypt episode contradicts their claim.

I think you answered your own question 🙂

Originally posted by Rajk999
Great Post.

Im begining to realise that some Christian sects wrongly preach that the teachings of Christ were not applicable after the Day of Pentecost when the apostles received the gift of the Holy Spirit. Hence the emphasis on Paul's teachings.

It seems that basically it comes down to following the teachings of Jesus vs. following the teachings of Paul. Many seem to prefer to believe the teachings of Paul.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I have no argument with Jesus commandments.

Jesus teaches that one must follow the will of God, i.e., not continue to sin, in order to "be saved"/"have eternal life"/"enter heaven"/ etc.

Glad to hear you no longer have an argument with this.

"Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven... Depart from me, you who work iniquity."

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever;"

May you continue to seek to understand the teachings of Jesus.