think of one - poll

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I believe that Jesus taught that one must "be righteous", not just "act righteous". You cannot continue to sin and "enter into the Kingdom of Heaven"/"remain in the house forever".

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me i ...[text shortened]... remain forever. So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed."

I agree that we can not continue in sin, however, we do war against our flesh and the spirit that is in us.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Originally posted by pritybetta
I agree that we can not continue in sin, however, we do war against our flesh and the spirit that is in us.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent ...[text shortened]... ur Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Just to make sure I understand you. You do not believe that you can continue to sin and "enter into the Kingdom of Heaven"/"remain in the house forever". Correct?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Just to make sure I understand you. You do not believe that you can continue to sin and "enter into the Kingdom of Heaven"/"remain in the house forever". Correct?

Correct. However, if we do sin we are to repent and not do that sin again. We are not to sin willfully.

Originally posted by pritybetta
Correct. However, if we do sin we are to repent and not do that sin again. We are not to sin willfully.

I think we're getting close to understanding each other.

But one must stop committing sin altogether. Correct?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever;"

This is all I've been saying. KM (as well as a few others) really takes exception to this, so he starts threads such as this.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I think we're getting close to understanding each other.

But one must stop committing sin altogether. Correct?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever;"

This is all I've been saying. KM really takes exception to this, so he starts threads such as this.

One must stop "committing" sin, though we still sin unknowingly. And when we are shown that it is sin we are to repent meaning turnaway from that sin.

We are still in the sinful flesh which will always be waring with the spirit untill Christ returns to gather his people and judge the world.

Originally posted by pritybetta
One must stop "committing" sin, though we still sin unknowingly. And when we are shown that it is sin we are to repent meaning turnaway from that sin.

We are still in the sinful flesh which will always be waring with the spirit untill Christ returns to gather his people and judge the world.

Do you believe that Jesus supported this position? If so, please cite book/chapter/verse.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Do you believe that Jesus supported this position? If so, please cite book/chapter/verse.

Which part? The part about still being in the fleshly body or the part about Christ returning to gather his people and judge the world?

Originally posted by pritybetta
Which part? The part about still being in the fleshly body or the part about Christ returning to gather his people and judge the world?

Sorry. "Fleshly body".

With verses such as the following (along with the verses I already cited regarding "slave to sin" and "Depart...iniquity" ), I think He's saying it doesn't have to be a "life sentence".

Matthew 7:17-18
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit".

Luke 9:24
"For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Sorry. "Fleshly body".

With verses such as the following (along with the verses I already cited regarding "slave to sin" and "Depart...iniquity" ), I think He's saying it doesn't have to be a "life sentence".

Matthew 7:17-18
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. [b]A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can ll lose it: but whosoever will lose his life for my sake, the same shall save it."[/b]

When he was refering to the 'trees' he was meaning spiritually, a good spirit will not produce bad works. However, while we are here on earth we are 'in' or fleshly bodies, that does not mean we are of flesh. We have a spirit and those who produce bad works have a bad spirit and are of their father the devil. Our flesh has a sinful nature but our spirit that is quickened is of the Lord. This is why Paul explains how the spirit wars with the flesh and why yet we are saved we do still have sin.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I think we're getting close to understanding each other.

But one must stop committing sin altogether. Correct?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever;"

This is all I've been saying. KM (as well as a few others) really takes exception to this, so he starts threads such as this.

Not true. Sin is impossible to stop. At most you must trust in Jesus and be redeemed. That's why he died. Come on, stop playing around.

Matthew 7:17-18
"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit".

I have a bit of a problem with that. I have known plenty of trees. None of them were good or bad. They produced good and bad fruit. They preformed better based on what they were given. Fertilizer, water, humidity, region, and type of plant, went into deciding how good the fruit produced was. And furthermore, I know people who have liked fruit that I thought was bad, or thought bad fruit that I savored. I'm not even that fond of fruit. Dichotomies are weak, and I cannot believe that a god with any true depth of knowledge would construct such a weak one, metaphor or not.

Originally posted by pritybetta
When he was refering to the 'trees' he was meaning spiritually, a good spirit will not produce bad works. However, while we are here on earth we are 'in' or fleshly bodies, that does not mean we are of flesh. We have a spirit and those who produce bad works have a bad spirit and are of their father the devil. Our flesh has a sinful nature but our spirit t ...[text shortened]... l explains how the spirit wars with the flesh and why yet we are saved we do still have sin.

I see the "life" that you lose as being the "life of the flesh". I see "sin" as being "bad fruit". If you have lost "life of the flesh" you will only bear "good fruit". If you have not lost "life of the flesh" you will continue to "commit sin" and remain a "slave to sin" and bear "bad fruit".

John 8:32-36
... "If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free."..."Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever"...

Jesus doesn't say "almost free". He says "free". Jesus doesn't say "everyone who commits sin except for those experiencing spirit wars with the flesh". He says "everyone who commits sin".

My question for you is, "Does Jesus support your position?". If so, please cite book/chapter/verse.

I'm thinking Jesus understood quite a bit more than Paul.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
To set the record straight:

Our on-going argument is that I believe that Jesus teaches salvation through righteousness. KM believes otherwise.

Whether or not I have overcome sin has no bearing on what Jesus taught.

There is no hypocrisy.

Unfortunately rather than deal with the words of Jesus, KM has sought to impugn my character.

But have you yourself got any personal experience at all of what you are talking about?

You keep telling everyone (via Jesus' quotes) that we are to "know the truth" and "the truth shall set you free" etc etc so it seems a perfectly reasonable question to ask if YOU actually know the truth and whether the truth has set YOU free? If not then how can you share something with others that you do not have yourself?

The point is that you are preaching this message to others in a specific way that is devoid of your own personal experience. It's entirely intellectual and lacking in depth. It's incomplete and fragmented because you are not able to relate it to your own experiences or own life in any way.

It's a bit like walking round at a pilots convention quoting flying manuals at everyone and then wondering why people ask you if you have ever flown a plane yourself. Theory is one thing , practice is another.

If you have not overcome sin yourself or even tried then what do you really know about this subject? All you seem to have is some rigid philosophy of Jesus that is based on a few selected verses and NOT the entirety of his teachings.

The interesting thing is that although you say that the issue of whether you yourself have overcome has no bearing you still balk at sharing this. I think it's because you know that it would have a bearing for others. What do you think will happen to your position if others realise that you cannot/do not practice what you preach? How will they respond to you if they find out you do not know the truth yourself about which you have been speaking?

(BTW- I do actually believe that Christ teaches salvation through righteousness - it's just that it's his righteousness in us and not our own)

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I think we're getting close to understanding each other.

But one must stop committing sin altogether. Correct?

"Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever;"

This is all I've been saying. KM (as well as a few others) really takes exception to this, so he starts threads such as this.

Any chance you could include the WHOLE verse next time? How about some context as well? What about a comparison with other teachings and verses?

Not only are your verses selctive , you are also starting to condense the verses themselves.

The verse itself goes on to say "and the Son shall set you free" and I have asked you for your interpretation on this.

Originally posted by knightmeister
I agree there is an edge to my post , however , I do feel that when we are being preached at so frequently we are entitled to ask whether the preacher also practices.

I think I would side with ThinkOfOne on this one. You are entitled to ask anything, but not necessarily entitled to an answer.
Though it is true that whether or not a preacher practices what they preach can tell you a lot about whether they believe what they preach, it does not necessarily reflect on the validity of the message.
If ThinkOfOne is able to support his argument (from the Bible or otherwise) then whether or not he believes it and acts on it should be irrelevant. If a theological argument is valid, then even I as an atheist, should be able to support it.
Further your argument borders on the old "If God is not the God I want him to be then I don't want to know Him". Your argument also seems to be saying "Unless you can find me someone who follows the teachings of Jesus (as you claim) then those are not the teachings of Jesus."