Tree Rings / Calendars

Originally posted by twhitehead
Thats because you don't have the first clue about basic physics. If the stars were closer when the light left them, we would see them as closer. Its so obvious it should slap you in the face.

Besides, having all the stars, and galaxies a mere 6 light days away from earth is such a ridiculous concept that it shows that you probably think the stars are painted on the sky.

That sounds like a problem in ridiculous physics. Suppose we have a universe where all the mass of all the galaxies in that universe were in a sphere 6 light days across, which is about 100 billion miles or 160 billion Km, about 1000 AU. My suspicion is all the mass of the universe in a sphere 1000 AU across would result in it being the largest black hole of all time.

Originally posted by sonhouse
That sounds like a problem in ridiculous physics. Suppose we have a universe where all the mass of all the galaxies in that universe were in a sphere 6 light days across, which is about 100 billion miles or 160 billion Km, about 1000 AU.

The largest stars are larger than 1AU. How many such stars would fill a volume of radius 1000AU? The stars we see in the sky simply wouldn't fit in that space.

Besides, none of this solves the problem that the stars appear to be further than 6000 light years away. Moving them away would not allow us to see them further away than 6000 light years in less than 6000 years. RJ just doesn't get basic physics.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Correct. But I can be pretty confident based on what I see. If I look at Table Mountain which is about 10 kilometres away from where I live, I can be pretty confident that the light has been travelling 10 kilometres, and I could work out, based on the speed of light how long it has been travelling. Even better, I could put a mirror on Table Mountain and a ...[text shortened]... sion. So either God created an illusion or he did not create light in transit. Its simple logic.

What you are doing is comparing light travel from a mountain to a place you
have no idea where it is, it would be like saying you saw a car on a freeway
travelling 75 miles an hour so it must of been 75 miles back an hour ago,
while the truth of the matter is all you know is how fast it is going not how long
its been on the road.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
What you are doing is comparing light travel from a mountain to a place you
have no idea where it is, it would be like saying you saw a car on a freeway
travelling 75 miles an hour so it must of been 75 miles back an hour ago,
while the truth of the matter is all you know is how fast it is going not how long
its been on the road.
Kelly

Dobbler effect.

Originally posted by Vartiovuori
Dobbler effect.

I get how its done, in communication we can track ships and other craft by
the radio signals, GPS and so on, this again is useful. It does not tell us how
long a candle has been burning even if we know the rate of burn and have
watched it for two hours if it was burning before we started looking at it, and
it appears it could have been burning for 3 hours before we got there, someone
could have lit it after it was out just before we got there, the distant past will
always remain out of our knowledge about somethings just by looking it.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
Thats because you don't have the first clue about basic physics. If the stars were closer when the light left them, we would see them as closer. Its so obvious it should slap you in the face.

Besides, having all the stars, and galaxies a mere 6 light days away from earth is such a ridiculous concept that it shows that you probably think the stars are painted on the sky.

What does "stretched out the heavens" mean to you?

Originally posted by RJHinds
What does "stretched out the heavens" mean to you?

It means nothing to him, he knows all about the dates of the past and cannot
be wrong about them. What he does not know or understand is just
meaningless and will not be able to disrupt his being unable to be wrong no
matter what it is.
Kelly

Originally posted by sonhouse
That sounds like a problem in ridiculous physics. Suppose we have a universe where all the mass of all the galaxies in that universe were in a sphere 6 light days across, which is about 100 billion miles or 160 billion Km, about 1000 AU. My suspicion is all the mass of the universe in a sphere 1000 AU across would result in it being the largest black hole of all time.

You do understand "black hole" is a theory, don't you?

http://members.fortunecity.com/oerlicon/SuperNovae/Black.html

P.S. Also, what do you think "God stretched out the heavens" means?

Originally posted by KellyJay
What you are doing is comparing light travel from a mountain to a place you
have no idea where it is, it would be like saying you saw a car on a freeway
travelling 75 miles an hour so it must of been 75 miles back an hour ago,
while the truth of the matter is all you know is how fast it is going not how long
its been on the road.
Kelly

Correct. However light carries information with it, far more information than a cars velocity does. I agree that we cannot always be sure where light came from or how far it has travelled, but we can be fairly sure. When you look up in the sky and see a galaxy, then we can be fairly sure that the light came from a galaxy. It is of course possible that the galaxy is an illusion, but it is such a sophisticated illusion that it would have to have been deliberate deception on the part of God. There is no other reasonable explanation for the appearance of a galaxy in the night sky. Either:
1. It exists.
2. God is deceiving us.
I really don't think your proposal:
3. We are fooled into thinking it is a galaxy but it isn't really, we are just not interpreting the picture correctly.
is a reasonable possibility.

Also, your earlier proposal that the light could have been created 'in transit' is a definite 2.

Originally posted by KellyJay
It means nothing to him, he knows all about the dates of the past and cannot
be wrong about them.

OK, I am getting tired of you deliberately misquoting me. I did not say that and you know it. Stop being dishonest. I know you hate this discussion with a passion because it always makes you look bad, but dishonesty is not called for and is beneath you.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Correct. However light carries information with it, far more information than a cars velocity does. I agree that we cannot always be sure where light came from or how far it has travelled, but we can be fairly sure. When you look up in the sky and see a galaxy, then we can be fairly sure that the light came from a galaxy. It is of course possible that the ...[text shortened]... , your earlier proposal that the light could have been created 'in transit' is a definite 2.

You ignore the effect of movement and the theory of relativity as the
heavens are stretched out.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You ignore the effect of movement and the theory of relativity as the
heavens are stretched out.

The movement of objects has no effect on the speed of light. Mass would I believe. Like a black hole would have a tremendous effect on light as we know. One thing astronomers have seen is that everything is in Red-Shift or moving away (This would lend credence to the idea of the heavens being stretched out) There is no argument with the idea of stretching or expansion as this concurs with the idea of a big bang or expansion or what ever label you wish to assign to what we see out in the heavens. I believe age/distances is what is really in question. I just think creationist (I'm a creationist) are too biased in the sense that they are afraid of science and facts and anything that might contradict what they hold in their minds to be true. The church once believed that the earth was flat!! WRONG The church once believed that the sun went around the earth WRONG. Truth is truth

Manny

Originally posted by twhitehead
Correct. However light carries information with it, far more information than a cars velocity does. I agree that we cannot always be sure where light came from or how far it has travelled, but we can be fairly sure. When you look up in the sky and see a galaxy, then we can be fairly sure that the light came from a galaxy. It is of course possible that the ...[text shortened]... , your earlier proposal that the light could have been created 'in transit' is a definite 2.

I agree it would be silly why put a galaxy out there so we can marvel at an illusion? All I'm trying to get these guys to understand is maybe their model is wrong.

Either the creator is deceptive OR not if not than.........something else is reality.
I have to go from the position that the creator is Not deceptive.


Manny

Originally posted by twhitehead
Correct. However light carries information with it, far more information than a cars velocity does. I agree that we cannot always be sure where light came from or how far it has travelled, but we can be fairly sure. When you look up in the sky and see a galaxy, then we can be fairly sure that the light came from a galaxy. It is of course possible that the ...[text shortened]... , your earlier proposal that the light could have been created 'in transit' is a definite 2.

You again are assuming quite a bit with respect on how everything got here
and where everything has been here thorughout time. You are using your
beliefs about your beliefs to justify them, a little circuluar if you ask me, since
the questions revolve around how did it all get here, where was it all X time
ago, and has anything we cannot see or grasp be in play here. You just assume
all things are as they are now and because of that you know what happened
in time so far back it isn't even funny.

God is not deceiving you, you have taken it upon yourself to do what your doing
with dates, you've even gone so far as to claim you cannot be wrong about
these dates too. I admit pride before a fall does come to mind when I think
about you, but you have made the claims you cannot be wrong. So if that is the
case, God cannot fake you out, you cannot be wrong. If you can be wrong well
you should be a little more humble when it comes to such things as your
pride is showing.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
Correct. However light carries information with it, far more information than a cars velocity does. I agree that we cannot always be sure where light came from or how far it has travelled, but we can be fairly sure. When you look up in the sky and see a galaxy, then we can be fairly sure that the light came from a galaxy. It is of course possible that the ...[text shortened]... , your earlier proposal that the light could have been created 'in transit' is a definite 2.

I told you God created the universe, you have taken it upon yourself to suggest
you know how it HAD to have happen so you can claim what the universe
looked like billions of years ago. You know God couldn't possible have made
the universe as if He were making a watch with all parts functioning at its
creation, what you seem to claim is that God instead HAD to make the watch
one piece at a time then having to put it all together to it worked.
Kelly