Originally posted by @fmfDude you are a liar then. Why do you bother to try to act like you are trying to have honest discourse?
What on earth are you on about? I mean, really. Take a breath. Stop fabricating things.
You are disgusting. I wonder if there is an honest liberal in this forum.
So far there are three official dishonest people in this forum: you, sonship and Suzi
All three of you simply wish to complain without any sort of honest discussion. Many others are possibilities but I am still holding judgement on them.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeI am not eager that this thread quickly morph into just another argument about the lake of fire.
Curious why you are inclined to focus on the symbolic nature of Leviticus but are not inclined to do so with biblical passages that speak of eternal suffering in hell.
Are passages only symbolic when they suit your purpose?
I recognize the symbolism of passages concerning eternal punishment. But they do not symbolize AWAY the dreaded matter to which any such symbols point - eternal punishment.
Look, when Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, that symbolizes that the final state of the lost is the lake of fire.
If the symbol had gone the other way, ie. the lake of fire is tossed into Death, then I would be more inclined to think God is showing us that punishment is not eternal. Then Annhilation or Universalism might have more of a case to me.
As it stands the realm of Death - Hades at the end goes into that burning lake. You contemplate it and make up your mind what it signifies.
"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them, and they were judged, each of them, according to their works.
And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:13,14)
You see? It is not the second death which finds its ultimate place within the first death. But it is the other way around.
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Originally posted by @sonshipWhat if God gave humanity the notion of eternity to enable us to provide a societal narrative beyond our individual lifetime? Such a narrative might better help us to avoid conflict with our neighbours and environment in the here and now to give our species better chances to reach the next millenia. I might consider myself a theist but I am no fan of pie in the sky when you die.
I am not eager that this thread quickly morph into just another argument about the lake of fire.
I recognize the symbolism of passages concerning eternal punishment. But they do not symbolize AWAY the dreaded matter to which any such symbols point - eternal punishment.
Look, when Death and Hades are thrown into the lake of fire, that symbolize ...[text shortened]... ond death which finds its ultimate place within the first death. But it is the other way around.
As for the barbaric practice of stoning I am sure the ancient Israelites were projecting their own prejudices onto their notion of God in order to rubber stamp it, just as many have done since. Jesus of Nazareth challenged this type of behaviour in the Go sin no more story in his attempt to move the thinking forward.
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Originally posted by @ragwort
What if God gave humanity the notion of eternity to enable us to provide a societal narrative beyond our individual lifetime? Such a narrative might better help us to avoid conflict with our neighbours and environment in the here and now to give our species better chances to reach the next millenia. I might consider myself a theist but I am no fan of pie in the sky when you die.
The narrative is Christ.
The enjoyment of Christ does not start only in the sky when you die.
The enjoyment of Christ is for man from the time of identifying utterly with Christ and yet onward into eternity.
So I quite agree with you about the narrative's practicality for the here and now.
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Cont. with Ragwort
As for the barbaric practice of stoning I am sure the ancient Israelites were projecting their own prejudices onto their notion of God in order to rubber stamp it, just as many have done since. Jesus of Nazareth challenged this type of behaviour in the Go sin no more story in his attempt to move the thinking forward.
God's revelation is progressive.
A section had to come in the revelation revealing God's hatred for sin. The Gospel of Luke would not make much sense if it followed Exodus. The stoning of the condemned sinner is progressively leading us to the universal "stoning" of the Son of God on His cross, for every single guilty one of us.
We would not understand well the judgment of the Son at Calvary on our behalf under God's hatred for sins unless Matthew, Mark, Luke and John had been preceded with "the ministry of condemnation".
Paul called the Old Testament law "the ministry of condemnation". And the new covenant he called the "ministry of righteousness" (among other things).
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Originally posted by @ragwort
What if God gave humanity the notion of eternity to enable us to provide a societal narrative beyond our individual lifetime? Such a narrative might better help us to avoid conflict with our neighbours and environment in the here and now to give our species better chances to reach the next millenia. I might consider myself a theist but I am no fan of pie in ...[text shortened]... this type of behaviour in the Go sin no more story in his attempt to move the thinking forward.
I might consider myself a theist but I am no fan of pie in the sky when you die.
You will find that I am going to attempt to cause you to become a theist completely, and one recognizing that Jesus is God.
Leviticus is all about God being incarnated to be a man for the building up of a mutual dwelling.
The first word and the last word in this book take place in the Tent of Meeting. All the offerings are types of what Christ is for the establishing of the "meeting place" of God and man on the earth. That eventually is the eternal city - New Jerusalem at the end of the Bible's revelation (Revelation 21 and 22 ). .
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Originally posted by @fmfSo Jehovah commanded that every seven years the debt servant be released from his depts in a year of Jubilee, given a fresh new start on life.
I would have thought that most sceptics would simply think what ghastly times they seemed to be back then and marvel at how there are people in the 21st century still obsessing over a mythology rooted in such dark and depraved stuff.
That's a ghastly idea to you from these dark times?
I dare say you probably wished it were true in your own life a couple of times.
Never wanted the debtor to release you from your obligation after a period of time ?
Originally posted by @eladarI thought judgement belonged to the Lord?!
Dude you are a liar then. Why do you bother to try to act like you are trying to have honest discourse?
You are disgusting. I wonder if there is an honest liberal in this forum.
So far there are three official dishonest people in this forum: you, sonship and Suzi
All three of you simply wish to complain without any sort of honest discussion. Many others are possibilities but I am still holding judgement on them.
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Originally posted by @sonshipTypo:
Never wanted the [debt collector] [edited] to release you from your obligation after a period of time ?
"debtor" should be "debt collector".
Originally posted by @ragwortAs for the barbaric practice of stoning I am sure the ancient Israelites were projecting their own prejudices onto their notion of God in order to rubber stamp it, just as many have done since.
What if God gave humanity the notion of eternity to enable us to provide a societal narrative beyond our individual lifetime? Such a narrative might better help us to avoid conflict with our neighbours and environment in the here and now to give our species better chances to reach the next millenia. I might consider myself a theist but I am no fan of pie in ...[text shortened]... this type of behaviour in the Go sin no more story in his attempt to move the thinking forward.
Is your assessment of their "barbaric practices" meant to include all of their ways and means?
Curious, since their barbarism included rules regarding sanitation, bacteria handling, quarantine, blood clotting, antiseptics, fetal alcohol syndrome, and other safeguards against the spread of infectious disease while everyone around them died in easily-prevented epidemics... literally thousands of years before Louis Pasteur's work (def not the first to challenge the prevailing theory of how such things work).
In our enlightened state (ha!), history will remember us as the most confused, bewildered and ignorant custodians of the human race who ever trudged across the surface of the earth.
How the Israelites would have been so exceedingly advanced in such crucial-for-survival aspects whilst being completely out to lunch on even one critical area is against any imaginable odds.