vegetarianism

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok fine. By all means dont eat meat.
What I dont understand is why do people feel the need to convert others to their way of thinking in such relatively petty issues?
You be a vegetarian. I choose to eat meat ... if and when I want.

Looking into the eyes of an animal .. any animal ? Geez .. get a girlfriend or something ... 🙂

1. I don't think its a petty issue
2. I'm not trying to convert anyone. (Like I said right at the start of this thread. I just thought there were some things in common with spirituality.)
3. Girlfriend? Lol!! (nothing to do with my statement at all, but if you want to compare looking into the eyes of an animal and looking into the eyes of a female then thats your trip.)

Originally posted by twhitehead
I just questioned your apparent use of 'capitalist' as an insult. I was wondering what alternatives you were offering and what lifestyle you yourself lead. I am fairly sure that you too are a capitalist.
I just fail to see the connection between capitalism and how we raise animals on farms. I certainly don't see Chinese farm animals living a life of luxury.

I'm not a capitalist. I'm content to make enogh money to support me and my family in a relatively frugile lifestyle, but by all means please point out to me how you think I'm a capitalist-I could be wrong.
At least the Chinese use every part of the animal- a step forward in my book.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I'm not a capitalist. I'm content to make enogh money to support me and my family in a relatively frugile lifestyle, but by all means please point out to me how you think I'm a capitalist-I could be wrong.
At least the Chinese use every part of the animal- a step forward in my book.

I think in every country every part of every animal is used, as long as the slaughtering and production process is properly organised. .. even if parts are used for fertilizer.

In Hungary , when I was a kid, we would raise up chooks, wait till they were ready and then the men would chop their heads off. The aunties would pluck the feathers and drain blood ,etc. then Grandma would cook the chook. It was a process that took the whole day. We all felt part of the process and it wasn't done in some mass-producing slaughterhouse where you didn't really know how the animal was killed or what sort of life it had.

The 'moral' condsideration is quite apparent to me.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
1. I don't think its a petty issue
2. I'm not trying to convert anyone. (Like I said right at the start of this thread. I just thought there were some things in common with spirituality.)
3. Girlfriend? Lol!! (nothing to do with my statement at all, but if you want to compare looking into the eyes of an animal and looking into the eyes of a female then thats your trip.)

You said you were ashamed that you ate meat. I think what people eat is irrelevant to their spirituality .. I suspect Christ also agrees with that.

Properly adjusted people dont go haywire over animals even their pets. I treat my pets humanely but I draw the line at them sleeping in my bed and licking my face .. neither do i care to look into their eyes ... 🙂 Does your wife have ugly eyes ?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Im still waiting on ToO to explain about the 'moral consideration' he sppoke of in meat eating. The US monoculture farming is now causing problems becuase of over production. Traditional farming like what exists in Zambia in my opinion is far easier to sustain over the long haul.

What over production issues are those? I thought that the US was a net importer of meat. Do they export grain? Why is over production a problem? Are we perhaps talking about perishables?
Zambian farming is no more 'traditional' than US farming nor is it particularly sustainable. Some farmers in both countries plan ahead and try to improve their land while others rape the land and move on.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
In Hungary , when I was a kid, we would raise up chooks, wait till they were ready and then the men would chop their heads off. The aunties would pluck the feathers and drain blood ,etc. then Grandma would cook the chook. It was a process that took the whole day. We all felt part of the process and it wasn't done in some mass-producing slaughterhouse wh ...[text shortened]... killed or what sort of life it had.

The 'moral' condsideration is quite apparent to me.

Is it better for the Chicken that you knew it, or better for you? I personally cant see the benefit to the chicken and I sure prefer not to have known it myself.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I think in every country every part of every animal is used, as long as the slaughtering and production process is properly organised. .. even if parts are used for fertilizer.

I'm not going to argue with you-even though I don't agree. There are always better ways to use the leftovers than fertilizer.
As far as the 'production process' goes I'm not so sure it is properly organized in a strongly capitalist orientated country.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
I'm not a capitalist. I'm content to make enogh money to support me and my family in a relatively frugile lifestyle, but by all means please point out to me how you think I'm a capitalist-I could be wrong.

Yet you make money, making you a capitalist.
I see though that you are still avoiding answering my questions as to why you accuse farmers of being capitalist. What if the farmer is also 'content to make enough money to support him and his family in a relatively frugile lifestyle'? Is he still a capitalist? Is he restricted crop farming if he follows that lifestyle?

At least the Chinese use every part of the animal- a step forward in my book.
As pointed out by Rajk999, don't look too closely next time you eat a sausage.

Originally posted by Rajk999
You said you were ashamed that you ate meat. I think what people eat is irrelevant to their spirituality .. I suspect Christ also agrees with that.

Properly adjusted people dont go haywire over animals even their pets. I treat my pets humanely but I draw the line at them sleeping in my bed and licking my face .. neither do i care to look into their eyes ... 🙂 Does your wife have ugly eyes ?

All eyes are beuatiful windows into the 'soul' imo.
Maybe I'm not 'properly adjusted' in your view- I still sleep better at night knowing that the animals we eat are properly treated.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Yet you make money, making you a capitalist.
I see though that you are still avoiding answering my questions as to why you accuse farmers of being capitalist. What if the farmer is also 'content to make enough money to support him and his family in a relatively frugile lifestyle'? Is he still a capitalist? Is he restricted crop farming if he follows that ...[text shortened]... my book.
As pointed out by Rajk999, don't look too closely next time you eat a sausage.[/b]

I make money to meet my basic needs- is that capitalism? Really?
I'm not accusing farmers of being capitalists. I'm questioning the whole 'capitalism-as-a bottom-line-at -the-expense- of -quality -of life-for -the animals' thing.
I know there are ways to farm animals that give the animals a better quality of life.

Originally posted by twhitehead
But surely that results in increase suffering for the lions prey, and you have stated that allowing such suffering is morally undesirable.

[b]You realize, of course, that this has nothing to do with the vegetarian question for humans.
Not when the 'vegetarian question' revolves around the morality of killing animals. Why would we deem keeping a pi ...[text shortened]... near starvation just to be finally killed in a painful agonizing death by a pack of wild dogs?[/b]

But surely that results in increase suffering for the lions prey, and you have stated that allowing such suffering is morally undesirable.

I don't know where you got that idea. Perhaps you've confused me with someone else?

This was my position:
"...it seems that taking the life of a sentient being (non-human or human) entails a lack of moral consideration."

Not when the 'vegetarian question' revolves around the morality of killing animals. Why would we deem keeping a pig well fed and in a nice environment then killing it for its meat morally wrong, yet accept as morally acceptable leaving a wild boar to its natural environment where it will suffer from various horrible diseases and near starvation just to be finally killed in a painful agonizing death by a pack of wild dogs?

I'm not sure why you insist on bundling the behavior of animals with a moral choice that can be made by humans. They are not related. The latter entails a moral consideration of taking the life of a sentient being (non-human or human) where humans can and do live quite healthy lives, arguably more so, without having to kill sentient beings for food. Is it your position that human moral consideration is dependent on the behavior of animals?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
All eyes are beuatiful windows into the 'soul' imo.
Maybe I'm not 'properly adjusted' in your view- I still sleep better at night knowing that the animals we eat are properly treated.

I agree and I have said that before ... all animals should be properly treated.

I arguing in favour of meat-eating not for any personal reasons but becuase I have come across many vegetarians (particularly hindus) who believe they are spiritually and morally superior to meat-eaters. I live on a small tropicall island so I eat lots of fish which is cheap (and properly treated). Very rarely do I eat beef, pork or lamb. I do eat goat .. from New Zealand ... very well treated.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Im still waiting on ToO to explain about the 'moral consideration' he sppoke of in meat eating. The US monoculture farming is now causing problems becuase of over production. Traditional farming like what exists in Zambia in my opinion is far easier to sustain over the long haul.

I've explained this several times. That you have a lack of empathy for other sentient beings and "dont place animals on the same level with humans regarding their ability to feel pleasure or pain or their ability to experience emotion" doesn't mean that I have offered no explanation. Since you've ignored my "Twilight Zone" reference, I'll give you a thought experiment. Let's say that aliens invade the Earth with the idea of farming humans for food. The aliens are much more highly evolved and "dont place [humans] on the same level with [themselves] regarding their ability to feel pleasure or pain or their ability to experience emotion". Would you believe that humans, as sentient beings, should not be afforded a right not to be used as a food source?

Originally posted by Rajk999
I agree and I have said that before ... all animals should be properly treated.

I arguing in favour of meat-eating not for any personal reasons but becuase I have come across many vegetarians (particularly hindus) who believe they are spiritually and morally superior to meat-eaters. I live on a small tropicall island so I eat lots of fish which is chea ...[text shortened]... ery rarely do I eat beef, pork or lamb. I do eat goat .. from New Zealand ... very well treated.

Oh yeah I agree with you . I don't think being vegetarian puts you on higher ground.