Originally posted by karoly aczel Capitalism is capitalism.
I know what capitalism is. But your implications regarding it are either false or disputable.
Do you believe capitalism is wrong?
Do you believe that a farmer who keeps animals for meat is any more capitalist than a farmer who grows vegetables?
Do you believe that all farmers are inherently capitalist?
What do the communists eat?
Originally posted by twhitehead If one feels it is morally wrong to kill a sentient being (ie intelligent animal), one must then deal with the dilemma of carnivores requiring meat to survive. Should we consider eliminating all carnivores for the greater good? We could even do it humanly via a sterilization program, but then if you think about it, sterilizing a lion will still result in ...[text shortened]... the rest of its life so surely it makes more sense from a moral standpoint to kill the lion now.
Under what conditions would ".... eliminating all carnivores for the greater good?.." make any sense. Sure as hell makes no sense today and even in the forseeable future.
Originally posted by Rajk999 Under what conditions would ".... eliminating all carnivores for the greater good?.." make any sense. Sure as hell makes no sense today and even in the forseeable future.
Why does it make no sense? I guess the only condition is that killing sentient beings or allowing others to kill them is morally wrong.
Here is my argument:
1. It is assumed that the death of a sentient being at the hand of another sentient being is wrong.
2. Carnivores cannot live without killing other sentient beings.
3. One carnivore typically kills many hundreds of sentient beings during its life time.
4. It is morally better to kill one carnivore than to allow it to kill hundreds of other sentient beings.
Originally posted by twhitehead ...2. Carnivores cannot live without killing other sentient beings.
....
No. You seem to not understand what a carnivore is.
A carnivore is an animal predator; they eat animals as opposed to plants. They are not a "meat eater" per se; they eat the entire animal.
A swallow is an insectivore, which makes it a carnivore. It is an obligate carnivore. I don't think you'll find anyone referring to insects as sentient beings.
Originally posted by twhitehead Why does it make no sense? I guess the only condition is that killing sentient beings or allowing others to kill them is morally wrong.
Here is my argument:
1. It is assumed that the death of a sentient being at the hand of another sentient being is wrong.
2. Carnivores cannot live without killing other sentient beings.
3. One carnivore typically kill ...[text shortened]... morally better to kill one carnivore than to allow it to kill hundreds of other sentient beings.
I am questioning the validity of your initial assumption. Under what law or guideline, moral or otherwise, is a lion killing a wildebeast or a man killing a cow for food be considered wrong?
Originally posted by karoly aczel I'm ashamed to admit TO MYSELF that I am not a strict vegetarian.(please note:this thread is not intended judge meat-eaters nor to try to convert people to vegetarianism.)
I do not buy meat, so in my dodgy reasoning I conclude that I am not contributing to the meat business. however when offered meat,or asked for it to be bought by my children, I eat i ...[text shortened]... tern religons like hinduism and bhuddism), BUT NOT ALWAYS
What do you guys and gals think?
I eat meat, and have eaten meat in other countries not knowing what it was, and
still don't care.
Kelly
Originally posted by Badwater No. You seem to not understand what a carnivore is.
A carnivore is an animal predator; they eat animals as opposed to plants. They are not a "meat eater" per se; they eat the entire animal.
A swallow is an insectivore, which makes it a carnivore. It is an obligate carnivore. I don't think you'll find anyone referring to insects as sentient beings.
OK. So obviously my argument must simply be modified to include only those carnivores that eat sentient beings.
Originally posted by Rajk999 I am questioning the validity of your initial assumption. Under what law or guideline, moral or otherwise, is a lion killing a wildebeast or a man killing a cow for food be considered wrong?
You are welcome to question that assumption as I do as well. I was merely pointing out that once the assumption is made (as ThinkOfOne did) it leads to the moral question as to whether we should get rid of carnivores that regularly kill other sentient beings.
I guess part of my question is whether it is immoral for an animal to kill another sentient beings or does it only apply to humans, and further is it immoral to stand by and what an animal kill another sentient being.
One would also have to have a value system (ie giving different weights to various levels of sentience) otherwise we may decide that it is morally good to kill of all those humans who refuse to become vegetarians.
Originally posted by twhitehead You are welcome to question that assumption as I do as well. I was merely pointing out that once the assumption is made (as ThinkOfOne did) it leads to the moral question as to whether we should get rid of carnivores that regularly kill other sentient beings.
I guess part of my question is whether it is immoral for an animal to kill another sentient bein ...[text shortened]... may decide that it is morally good to kill of all those humans who refuse to become vegetarians.
Ok. I suppose its up to ToO to explain how he arrived at the statement that eating meat entails a lack of moral consideration.
Originally posted by twhitehead No it wasn't an argument, it was a statement of fact. I currently find it much easier to cook meals that include meat. If you have some recipes for vegetarian meals that are fairly easy to prepare and that a 12 year old will eat without too much trouble, then I would welcome them.
An easy way is to take pretty much any favorite recipe of yours that has a sauce, e.g., curry, spaghetti sauce, curries, etc. and add beans and/or lentils instead of meat. Red kidney and black beans both have high protein and fiber content - lentils even more so and also cook quickly.
Originally posted by Rajk999 What moral standards (apart from your own maybe) state that animals should not be eaten?
Maybe it would help if you put the statement back in context:
"taking the life of a sentient being (non-human or human) entails a lack of moral consideration."
Do you not believe that sentient beings deserve consideration simply because they are sentient?
Originally posted by twhitehead If one feels it is morally wrong to kill a sentient being (ie intelligent animal), one must then deal with the dilemma of carnivores requiring meat to survive. Should we consider eliminating all carnivores for the greater good? We could even do it humanly via a sterilization program, but then if you think about it, sterilizing a lion will still result in ...[text shortened]... the rest of its life so surely it makes more sense from a moral standpoint to kill the lion now.
This doesn't logically follow. There's no more reason to advocate the elimination of all carnivores (also sentient) than humans that choose to eat meat. Perhaps you've failed to consider that humans can and do live quite healthy lives, arguably more so, without having to kill sentient beings for food.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne Maybe it would help if you put the statement back in context:
"taking the life of a [b]sentient being (non-human or human) entails a lack of moral consideration."
Do you not believe that sentient beings deserve consideration simply because they are sentient?[/b]
Absolutely not.
The only 'consideration' I think should be afforded to lower animals reared for meat is that they should be fed properly and killed painlessly.
I dont believe in rearing animals to cater for the needs of human vanity.
I dont believe that there is anything virtuous in Hindus living on vegetation and in abject poverty, while perfectly good beef goes to waste.
Originally posted by Rajk999 Absolutely not.
The only 'consideration' I think should be afforded to lower animals reared for meat is that they should be fed properly and killed painlessly.
I dont believe in rearing animals to cater for the needs of human vanity.
I dont believe that there is anything virtuous in Hindus living on vegetation and in abject poverty, while perfectly good beef goes to waste.
Are there any animals other than humans, for instance dogs and cats, that you would not eat because you consider their sentience?
Regarding Hinduism, I think you may have some misconceptions. I only poked around a little and don't know if this is entirely true, but I found this:
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Hindus-946/Eating-Beef.htm
Hindu dietary laws are not, properly speaking, a part of religion, and there is nothing in Vedanta philosophy that favors one kind of food over another. Hindu social custom, however, has banned beef for centuries, considering the cow a pet animal more useful alive than dead. Just as most Americans would consider eating their pet dogs a horrible idea, even though dogs are perfectly edible as some east asian culture know, most Hindus raised in a traditional way in India consider eating beef a horrible idea.
Did you ever see an episode of the "Twilight Zone" called "To Serve Man"? For some the only consideration is a self-centered one.
From Wiki:
A race of aliens known as the Kanamits lands on Earth and promises to be nothing but helpful to the cause of humanity. Initially wary of the intentions of such a highly advanced race, even the most skeptical humans are convinced when their code-breakers begin to translate one of the Kanamit's books, with the seemingly innocuous title, "To Serve Man."
Sharing their advanced technology, the aliens quickly solve all of Earth's greatest woes, eradicating hunger, disease, and the need for warfare. Soon, humans are volunteering for trips to the Kanamits' home planet, which is supposedly a paradise.
Not all is well, however, when a code-breaker discovers the Kanamits' true intentions: Their book, "To Serve Man," is a cookbook, and all their gifts were simply to make humanity complacent, much like fattening pigs or cows before they are slaughtered.
28 Oct '09 12:22
vegetarianism
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