Originally posted by ZahlanziSee above in my reply to Vistesd.
"Please humor me here"
i was gonna. i really was. opened my mind to the possibility you will going to say something reasonable. something to ponder about. i really hoped you would give me a wonderful counter argument, so i feel intellectually challenged debating you
but then you compared children with cancerous cells. and i feel you are now the dumbest person on this forum. and you beat people like rjhinds and suzianne
Originally posted by checkbaiterCheckbaiter, I hold you in high regard. But, must disagree with your posts. You say that satan is trying to destroy the human race.....but.....God has beat satan to the task.
It is an analogy. It would hold no water today, because holy spirit is now available.
But in that time frame, before the Messiah was born, Satan sought to destroy the human race before the promised seed came.
As to your question, of course not. It wasn't a perfect analogy, but it makes the point.
There is NO defending God, for what has taken place in the bible. And, anytime I see people trying to defend some glaring problem from the bible.....it makes me wince, because the non-believers only have that much more ammunition against believers.
God cannot be defended for the flood of Noah, which killed children. God cannot be defended for the killing of the first born of Egypt. God hardened the heart of Pharoah, to make sure the 10th plague would happen. The Jews celebrate this TRAGEDY as Passover. Something is very, very wrong with the entire picture.
Originally posted by ZahlanziDid you miss this, or just didn't want to carry on this conversation which would be okay.
those that believe in the global flood justify it by saying "well everybody was evil, the world had to end".
so what does that mean?
let's consider that being evil means you are being evil towards someone else. i don't care much if what you do is not affecting anyone. i don't care if you have evil thoughts if you don't act on them.
so one being ...[text shortened]... l his hammer.
the conclusion is that god destroyed a LOT of victims in the global flood.
"Can I ask you a few questions, since life is a both given and taken from the same source
does that source owe you or anyone an explanation for its giving or taking away of life?
When God gives us rain doesn't everyone get wet, those would call good and evil?
If God treats us all the same way for the same reasons do we really have cause to
complain?
Didn't Noah and everyone with him who got on the boat die some time after the event of
the flood if the story is true, making it clear that all will die some time after God grants
them being with life?
If God judges us as all sinners yet puts up with us while we are living out our lives of sin
don't you think that He is giving us a measure of grace just to put up with our hard hearts
that would not only reject Him, but failing to acknowledge all of our selfishness?"
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayso life has no meaning or value because we die sooner or later? should murderers walk free?
Did you miss this, or just didn't want to carry on this conversation which would be okay.
"Can I ask you a few questions, since life is a both given and taken from the same source
does that source owe you or anyone an explanation for its giving or taking away of life?
When God gives us rain doesn't everyone get wet, those would call good and evil? ...[text shortened]... ard hearts
that would not only reject Him, but failing to acknowledge all of our selfishness?"
yes, noah did die at a later point. but he died surrounded by a legion of grandchildren and greatgrandchildren. put that in contrast to the people who died through drowning, holding their children close, knowing they will drown too. kind of not the same thing, is it?
try again.
Originally posted by checkbaiterI think perhaps you misunderstood my post. I am suggesting that “cancer” might be actually a better metaphor for “sin” than more moralistic views—but not as applied to people themselves. (All our analogies and metaphors are limited, no doubt.)
See above in my reply to Vistesd.
Originally posted by vistesdI agree, not a good analogy on my part. How about killing zombie children before they infect the rest of the population?
I think perhaps you misunderstood my post. I am suggesting that “cancer” might be actually a better metaphor for “sin” than more moralistic views—but not as applied to people themselves. (All our analogies and metaphors are limited, no doubt.)
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterI could never understand the need Christians feel to defend God. God can do whatever he wants with his creation. That which pleases God is kept, that which does not please him is destroyed .. a fact that is clearly stated in the Bible.
I agree, not a good analogy on my part. How about killing zombie children before they infect the rest of the population?
Could it be that Christians feel that they get 'brownie' points for their support?
Originally posted by Rajk999
I could never understand the need Christians feel to defend God. God can do whatever he wants with his creation. That which pleases God is kept, that which does not please him is destroyed .. a fact that is clearly stated in the Bible.
Could it be that Christians feel that they get 'brownie' points for their support?
Could it be that Christians feel that they get 'brownie' points for their support?
No, that would be works.
I could never understand the need Christians feel to defend God
Yes, God needs no defense. Truth needs no defense.
But the bible commands this...
2 Tim 4:2-5
Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of season. Convince, rebuke, exhort, with all longsuffering and teaching. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; 4 and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables. 5 But you be watchful in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
NKJV
Originally posted by checkbaiterNot sure if 'preaching the word' includes preaching to people who have repeatedly condemned God in the worst language available in their vocabulary. Christ and the Apostles does advise what to do in these circumstances and preaching is not suggested ... but .. you go for it.Could it be that Christians feel that they get 'brownie' points for their support?
No, that would be works.I could never understand the need Christians feel to defend God
Yes, God needs no defense. Truth needs no defense.
But the bible commands this...
[b]2 Tim 4:2-5
Preach the word! Be ready in season and out of sea ...[text shortened]... ll things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.
NKJV
[/b]
1 edit
Originally posted by ZahlanziNo you miss the point, God appoints the death of everyone, none of us will escape that
so life has no meaning or value because we die sooner or later? should murderers walk free?
yes, noah did die at a later point. but he died surrounded by a legion of grandchildren and greatgrandchildren. put that in contrast to the people who died through drowning, holding their children close, knowing they will drown too. kind of not the same thing, is it?
try again.
unless God ends death for all or some. So the only end of any life that is not murder are
the God appointed ones. If God calls you home to Himself it does not devalue you, if God
calls another home to Himself that also does not devalue that life. If you or I take it upon
upon ourselves to end another's life by our appointed times not God's that would be
murder.
6 edits
Originally posted by chaney3God cannot be defended for the flood of Noah, which killed children.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Just out of curiosity - How do you know that children WERE killed ?
I'm not insisting none were. I am simply asking how you know children were drowned?
God cannot be defended for the killing of the first born of Egypt.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
After 9 less severe chastizements upon Egypt, the tenth, the killing of the firstborn seems recompense for the time in which Egypt did that to the Hebrews. Remember that Pharaoh instructed his people to murder the firstborn Hebrew boys and let the girls live.
Genocide.
Anyway, I consider it a national punishment. I do not consider it a personal punishment upon those firstborn whom God slew. All firstborn were probably not infants. They could have been firstborn yet adults.
The alternative of BELIEVING God's warning to practice the passover with the atoning blood was offered them. It was evidence that some Egyptians resorted to that protection. For the Bible says that they went out of Egypt "a mixed multitude" . The firstborn of those Egyptians were not killed.
Anyway, we are not told of the eternal destiny of those firstborn children so slain. A national judgment upon the society of Egypt was not a personal judgment upon those
God hardened the heart of Pharoah, to make sure the 10th plague would happen.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This is indeed a controversial matter. The Bible says both - that Phariah hardened his heart and that God hardened his heart.
The Bible does not just say it was done by God. It says Pharoah hardened, it says God hardened.
But I have no easy explanation to this age old controversy. It has never been so problematic as to cause me to not read the rest of the Bible.
The Jews celebrate this TRAGEDY as Passover. Something is very, very wrong with the entire picture.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The 4th of July (Independence Day) was a tragedy in some sense to someone. Some British and even probably some American loyalists considered a declaration of independence from King George to be a tragedy to them.
Are then Americans wrong to celebrate it ?
Not quite the slam-dunk you thought it would be, huh?
1 edit
The threat to the Egyptians that the firstborn were to be killed ALSO was directed towards the Israelites.
Whoever, whether Hebrew OR Egyptian, who obeyed Moses' warning about the destroying angel coming through to judge, was spared.
Hebrews who did not believe to practice that evening the Passover with the redemptive blood on the doorpost and the lintel, also lost a firstborn relative.
You might say in this instance it was an equal opportunity judgment of God. The believing and obedient were passed over.