What happens....

Originally posted by Zander 88
I know it's a tought question, but I feel it's best to answer them rather than avoid them. Thanks for your time.

You do believe God is loving and just. Only problem is you accept that a person can be saved without knowing Jesus, without understanding his message. You admit religion is not needed to go to heaven. You only need to live a loving and compassionate life.

i think that if someone rejects Jesus then they are not going to heaven, period. However, i think that you can know Jesus without knowing him by name. if you do everything in matthew 25 and just shine in lovingness (is that a word?). if you think of others before yourself and stick humbly to the ten commandments, even though you have never heard them (apart from the first one, perhaps 😛) then you do know Jesus and you shall be saved. God is love. if you know love, you know God.

Originally posted by genius
if you know love, you know God.

Amen.

Originally posted by genius
1 peter 4:8

"Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins."

One might add Paul’s statement:

>> 1 Corinthians 13:2 And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing... 13 And now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; and the greatest of these is love.

And—

>> 1st John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another, because love is from God; everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9 God's love was revealed among us in this way: God sent his only Son into the world so that we might live through him. 10 In this is love, not that we loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Beloved, since God loved us so much, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God lives in us, and his love is perfected in us. 13 By this we know that we abide in him and he in us, because he has given us of his Spirit. 14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Savior of the world. 15 God abides in those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God, and they abide in God. 16 So we have known and believe the love that God has for us. God is love, and those who abide in love abide in God, and God abides in them.

EDIT: Okay, you beat me to it...

Originally posted by genius
1 peter 4:8

"Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins."

it's simple. feed the hungry, give a drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, invite the stranger into your house and look after the vulnerable.

show love, and you shall recieve love. love covers a multitude of offences! genius


It doesn't seem it's quite that "simple". Love is required, however it appears that several things need to be borne of that love, including not only works, but also repentance. I say repentance here assuming none amongst men are without sin. "Works" alone clearly does not give one a free pass.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not everyone who says to me,'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will tell me in that day,'Lord, Lord, didn't we prophesy in your name, in your name cast out demons, and in your name do many mighty works?' Then I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b] it's simple. feed the hungry, give a drink to the thirsty, clothe the naked, invite the stranger into your house and look after the vulnerable.

show love, and you shall recieve love. love covers a multitude of offences! genius


It doesn't seem it's quite that "simple". Love is required, however it appears that several things need to be bo I will tell them,'I never knew you. Depart from me, you who work iniquity.'[/b]

but then who should those that do not know Jesus repent to? perhaps asking for forgiveness from those you have is wronged enough?

i don't know. all i really am sure of is that God loves us all. it is, in my opinion, inconceivable that God would just forget about so many billions upon billions of people over the years. He is faithful to his creation and everyone has an opportunity to get into heaven. everyone. i can't see it being any other way!

it may be that i am wrong, but...well...*shrugs* i also believe that baptism is the new circumcision, so what do i know?

EDIT: also, love coveres a multitute of sins. not them all, just rather a lot...

Originally posted by genius
but then who should those that do not know Jesus repent to? perhaps asking for forgiveness from those you have is wronged enough?

i don't know. all i really am sure of is that God loves us all. it is, in my opinion, inconceivable that God would just forget about so many billions upon billions of people over the years. He is faithful to his creation and eve do i know?

EDIT: also, love coveres a multitute of sins. not them all, just rather a lot...

Re-read my earlier post. I'm in your camp about "God [loving] us all" 🙂

However, ultimately repentance is "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life.", though it's often used in the context of "feeling remorse" or "asking for forgiveness". It's about a change of heart. I see it as a progression: the sin, remorse for the sin, turning away from the sin. If one turns away from the sin, I believe forgiveness is granted even if it's not explicitly "asked for".

Perhaps what Peter means is that through love, repentance can be borne. I'm definitely not in the "coverup" camp. It just doesn't make sense to me. Underneath it still is what it is. It brings to mind the image of slapping lipstick on a pig.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Re-read my earlier post. I'm in your camp about "God [loving] us all" 🙂

However, ultimately repentance is "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life.", though it's often used in the context of "feeling remorse" or "asking for forgiveness". It's about a change of heart. I see it as a progression: the sin, remorse for the sin, ...[text shortened]... ill is what it is. It brings to mind the image of slapping lipstick on a pig.

I actually think metanoia goes even deeper than that—although your caution about taking it as simply feeling remorse or asking forgiveness is one of the reasons why I don’t translate the term anymore (though it literally means a change or transformation of mind, nous). I don’t think the nous, however, is just the conceptualizing mind.

I don’t think the transformation necessarily happens all at once: it can be like the person walking in a heavy mist, who suddenly realizes he is soaking wet—and keeps getting wetter... Alternatively, there can be occasions of metanoia. Either way, it can be a continuing and deepening transformation.

The "pig/lipstick" image is great!

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Re-read my earlier post. I'm in your camp about "God [loving] us all" 🙂

However, ultimately repentance is "to turn from sin and dedicate oneself to the amendment of one's life.", though it's often used in the context of "feeling remorse" or "asking for forgiveness". It's about a change of heart. I see it as a progression: the sin, remorse for the sin, ...[text shortened]... ill is what it is. It brings to mind the image of slapping lipstick on a pig.

yeah, i agree 🙂

although i'm not quite sure what you mean when you are talking about the "coverup camp"?

Originally posted by Zander 88
to the people who have never heard of God or the bible. They have never had the opportunity to read the bible, given their remote location. They have never met a Christian in their life. What will happen to them? Basically, there's a whole lot of people you have to consider. As soon as Jesus died and left his message, everyone had to believe or perish. So, ...[text shortened]... e to their good chance of location near Jesus. Is this a just and loving God, or a God of luck?

He is a just and loving God.

Originally posted by Zander 88
to the people who have never heard of God or the bible. They have never had the opportunity to read the bible, given their remote location. They have never met a Christian in their life. What will happen to them? Basically, there's a whole lot of people you have to consider. As soon as Jesus died and left his message, everyone had to believe or perish. So, ...[text shortened]... e to their good chance of location near Jesus. Is this a just and loving God, or a God of luck?

You forgot about all who died before the Messiah came into the world. What of them?

As far as my theology goes Chrsit died for ALL. This includes those men of God who died before the time of Christ. As for those who have never heard of him let God be the judge. For ALL who make it I say that through Christ they are redeemed and not by their works least any man should boast. This much is certain and that is Christ ordered his disciples to go and spread the word to ALL of mankind. This tells me that the message of the good news of the gospel needs to be heard by all of mankind. More will benefit from its message than would benefit otherwise. For those who do not think Christ is "the way" to God I would ask them why he offered himself as a sacrifice. Christ plainly stated that man did not take his life, rather, he laid down his life for menkind. So if there are all of these other roads to take to get to God why was it necessary for Christ to lay down his life? It seems to me that Christ in no way fancied being tortured and killed and seperated from his Father as the sin of mankind was placed upon him. Either that or he sweated great drops of blood before the event just for our amusement.

As far as those who have no knowledge of the true God one must keep in mind that somewhere along the line the knowledge of the true God was rejected or twisted somewhere along the road. Unfortunatly we pay for the sins of our parents in many respects. We see this in terms of generation after generation succumb to evils such as alcholism, sexual abuse etc. There is NOTHING fair about it but then again, who said life is fair? On the other hand, is it good to view succeeding generations as completly seperate from their parents? Are we not an extension of somekind of who and what they were?

This much is certain and that is the current generation as well as generations past share a responsibility in terms of how they live their lives and what they pass down to other generations. It all boils down to ACCOUNTABILITY. Let God be the judge.

Originally posted by vistesd
In addition, if the person in Zander’s example acts as genius outlined, he could be considered as acting according to “the way, the truth and the life” in his deeds. In that manner, he is demonstrating faithfulness—not to a creed, but to the divine way, truth and life.

I agree 100%
If a God existed, this is the way that makes best sense. Therefore, one can conclude that religion has lost it's way. Notice how all the strife between religions is between the superficial "prophets", stories, etc. Now, look at their fundamental message. Similiar? Hell yeah! Here is a quote from Bruce Lee in Enter the Dragon:

"Do not concentrate on the finger or you will miss all that heavenly glory."

Originally posted by genius
i think that if someone rejects Jesus then they are not going to heaven, period. However, i think that you can know Jesus without knowing him by name. if you do everything in matthew 25 and just shine in lovingness (is that a word?). if you think of others before yourself and stick humbly to the ten commandments, even though you have never heard them (apart f ...[text shortened]... 😛) then you do know Jesus and you shall be saved. God is love. if you know love, you know God.

It's not Jesus himself so much as his message of love, correct? I would gel with this, but you must make one correction. There is no "Christian" God, just a "Christian" way. Your way to attain this loving state is no worse, or better, than the Islamic way. All are valid ways to reach God. You don't worship religion, you worship God. Would you agree with this?

Originally posted by RBHILL
He is a just and loving God.

Then you would agree that there is no correct religion, just all ways to achieve a loving fellowship with God? Personally, this is the ONLY way I can see God being just and loving. Else, you must accept the dilemma of unfortunately being born outside Christian teachings.

Originally posted by whodey
You forgot about all who died before the Messiah came into the world. What of them?

As far as my theology goes Chrsit died for ALL. This includes those men of God who died before the time of Christ. As for those who have never heard of him let God be the judge. For ALL who make it I say that through Christ they are redeemed and not by their works least ...[text shortened]... y pass down to other generations. It all boils down to ACCOUNTABILITY. Let God be the judge.

You focus to much on Jesus, the person, then what his message was. Look at my 3 posts above. It's all about one word, love.

As far as my theology goes Chrsit died for ALL. This includes those men of God who died before the time of Christ. As for those who have never heard of him let God be the judge

Let God be the judge... not religon. Love is not specific to one culture, one way.

For ALL who make it I say that through Christ they are redeemed and not by their works least any man should boast.

love does not boast.

For those who do not think Christ is "the way" to God I would ask them why he offered himself as a sacrifice.

Christ is one way. As you know, his message was about love. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Jesus had unwavering love, and he would not let anything come between him and love. That was his message. He died for going against the grain, and not backing down for fear of his life.

As far as those who have no knowledge of the true God one must keep in mind that somewhere along the line the knowledge of the true God was rejected or twisted somewhere along the road. Unfortunatly we pay for the sins of our parents in many respects

Yes, we suffer from our parents' wrongs. I don't deny that, but... you are saying that these children are given no chance to be saved. Yet, other people's children are given a chance. That isn't justice. That isn't love. Also, this is silly to debate given that some people did nothing wrong, they were just not within reach of Christ's message.

Originally posted by Zander 88
It's not Jesus himself so much as his message of love, correct? I would gel with this, but you must make one correction. There is no "Christian" God, just a "Christian" way. Your way to attain this loving state is no worse, or better, than the Islamic way. All are valid ways to reach God. You don't worship religion, you worship God. Would you agree with this?

no. as i said, "if someone rejects Jesus then they are not going to heaven, period". when Jesus was asked what the most important commandment is he said, "Love the Lord your God".

most of what i have said in this thread is assuming that you have never heard the word of god.