What happens....

Originally posted by genius
no. as i said, "if someone rejects Jesus then they are not going to heaven, period". when Jesus was asked what the most important commandment is he said, "Love the Lord your God".

most of what i have said in this thread is assuming that you have never heard the word of god.

Oh. So God makes exceptions to those who have never heard the word. That makes sense.... NOT! 🙂

You can't have it both ways. If the only way to God is through Jesus himself, why would God lie? You accept the bible as God's word. Why would he lie? You must either accept that Jesus is a metaphor for love, or that God has lied to you.

Originally posted by genius
yeah, i agree 🙂

although i'm not quite sure what you mean when you are talking about the "coverup camp"?

The idea that one can "cover" sin without repentance, be it with works, "belief" in Jesus or whatever.

Originally posted by vistesd
I actually think metanoia goes even deeper than that—although your caution about taking it as simply feeling remorse or asking forgiveness is one of the reasons why I don’t translate the term anymore (though it literally means a change or transformation of mind, nous). I don’t think the nous, however, is just the conc ...[text shortened]... ay, it can be a continuing and deepening transformation.

The "pig/lipstick" image is great!

Can you expand on what you mean by "deeper"?

I guess I see it as what I call a "change of heart." That one goes beyond merely forgoing or even "losing desire" for the sin to having a heartfelt aversion if not an abhorence for the sin.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Can you expand on what you mean by "deeper"?

I guess I see it as what I call a "change of heart." That one goes beyond merely forgoing or even "losing desire" for the sin to having a heartfelt aversion if not an abhorence for the sin.

I don’t know if I can... Let me think about it. This touches on the pre-conceptual consciouness—perhaps what you mean by “heart”? Words come hard here.

BTW, in both the Hebrew and the Greek, the words translated as "sin" do not have a strictly moral character. That is included, but it means human error and failure generally. The Greek word hamartia means "to miss the mark"--whether that is due to moral cuplability or not.

Originally posted by Zander 88
[b]You focus to much on Jesus, the person, then what his message was. Look at my 3 posts above. It's all about one word, love.

I focus to much on Jesus and not the message? How so? Did I not say that Christ said that he laid down his life for our sakes? Is this not a message of his? Are you going to pick and choose what message of his you fancy? In fact, Chirst said that no man has greater love for his friends than to lay down his life for them and that is exactly what he did. Why then did Christ lay down his life? What benefit was there for his friends?

Originally posted by Zander 88
to the people who have never heard of God or the bible. They have never had the opportunity to read the bible, given their remote location. They have never met a Christian in their life. What will happen to them? Basically, there's a whole lot of people you have to consider. As soon as Jesus died and left his message, everyone had to believe or perish. So, ...[text shortened]... e to their good chance of location near Jesus. Is this a just and loving God, or a God of luck?

What's more important is what happens to people who used the bible as toilet paper? And do you think God will judge severly my art piece of the Head of Mary on the whore of a body (fingering herself) and the text below it: Coming for Jesus

Originally posted by Zander 88


Yes, we suffer from our parents' wrongs. I don't deny that, but... you are saying that these children are given no chance to be saved. Yet, other people's children are given a chance. That isn't justice. That isn't love. Also, this is silly to debate given that some people did nothing wrong, they were just not within reach of Christ's message.[/b]

I did not say that these other children were not given a chance did I? Just like I do not say that the child of an alcholic does not have a chance to avoid alcholism etc. However, the chances seem to diminish based upon what the parent exposes their children to. Is it fair that parents are capable of "screwing up" their children? As I said before, life is not fair, however, the parents should share in terms of accountability regarding how their offspring turn out.

Originally posted by whodey
I focus to much on Jesus and not the message? How so? Did I not say that Christ said that he laid down his life for our sakes? Is this not a message of his? Are you going to pick and choose what message of his you fancy? In fact, Chirst said that no man has greater love for his friends than to lay down his life for them and that is exactly what he did. Why then did Christ lay down his life? What benefit was there for his friends?

When you say "belief" in Jesus, what exactly do you mean? If you are going to say that one must believe in Jesus/Christian God to be saved, then yes, I believe you are mistaken.

Are you going to pick and choose what message of his you fancy?

Are you? It is not a concern for me because I don't worship religion. It is for you because it is your foundation. Answer the same question I gave genius if you will please.

Originally posted by shavixmir
What's more important is what happens to people who used the bible as toilet paper? And do you think God will judge severly my art piece of the Head of Mary on the whore of a body (fingering herself) and the text below it: Coming for Jesus

It is clear that you have no fear of God for making such comments. After all, if you do not believe in a God why should you fear him? However, what about those who hold him dear and believe in him? Why do you insist on taking what they hold dear and throwing dung at it? Do you enjoy trying to offend people?

Having said that it is interesting to me that you seem to spend a great deal of time blaspheming what you think is imaginary. What are you really fighting Shav? Do you really hate Christians like me that much? If so, what is your gripe?

Originally posted by whodey
I did not say that these other children were not given a chance did I? Just like I do not say that the child of an alcholic does not have a chance to avoid alcholism etc. However, the chances seem to diminish based upon what the parent exposes their children to. Is it fair that parents are capable of "screwing up" their children? As I said before, life is ...[text shortened]... r, the parents should share in terms of accountability regarding how their offspring turn out.

That is the problem. People are given NO CHANCE to follow Christ's message because of their remote location. It's very simple. Given that most Christians believe that you MUST BELIEVE IN CHRIST to be saved, this is a very disturbing problem. I'm not concerned about parents screwing up their children. That's not the argument, unless you would like to say that everyone born far away from the reaches of Christianity is screwed up?

Originally posted by Zander 88
Oh. So God makes exceptions to those who have never heard the word. That makes sense.... NOT! 🙂

You can't have it both ways. If the only way to God is through Jesus himself, why would God lie? You accept the bible as God's word. Why would he lie? You must either accept that Jesus is a metaphor for love, or that God has lied to you.

I am not going to say whether those who have never heard of Christ can or cannot be "saved". What I will say, however, is that through Christ and Christ alone those that are saved are saved ONLY through his sacrifice. This includes all those who died before the Messiah came into the world and all those after.

Originally posted by Zander 88
That is the problem. People are given NO CHANCE to follow Christ's message because of their remote location. It's very simple. Given that most Christians believe that you MUST BELIEVE IN CHRIST to be saved, this is a very disturbing problem. I'm not concerned about parents screwing up their children. That's not the argument, unless you would like to say that everyone born far away from the reaches of Christianity is screwed up?

What I am saying is that God holds us accountable in terms of what we do with what we have. What I was saying in terms of parents screwing up their offspring in various ways is simply pointing out that some accountability must be placed on the parents or their parents parents etc. as well in terms how God will judge their offspring. Thier participation may, in fact, stack the deck against us and place the odds against us in terms of overcoming their shortcomings in how they raised us or the direction they steered us. Ultimatly, however, we are accountable for our own actions despite how we may have been steered the wrong way and despite it not being "fair". I think God will take such problematic scenerios into consideration when he judges us, however.

Originally posted by whodey
I am not going to say whether those who have never heard of Christ can or cannot be "saved". What I will say, however, is that through Christ and Christ alone those that are saved are saved ONLY through his sacrifice. This includes all those who died before the Messiah came into the world and all those after.

Those outside Christianity's domain have three possibilities:
1. to be saved
2. to not be saved
3. nothing happens...

ONE of those MUST be picked.
Let's first imagine that they are saved [1]. What does this mean?

1. God lied. (lol...)

As Big Mac said in an earlier post, "Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. Noone comes to the Father but by me.' So, with Jesus, one cannot go to Heaven."

These people obviously were saved without knowing anything about Christianity. On to next possibility...

2. There isn't a "Christian" God. (heresy!)

Big Mac's quote from the bible must not be taken as literal. Instead, as vistesd said, "In addition, if the person in Zander’s example acts as genius outlined, he could be considered as acting according to “the way, the truth and the life” in his deeds. In that manner, he is demonstrating faithfulness—not to a creed, but to the divine way, truth and life."

Thus anybody can be saved, you don't have to believe in Jesus for salvation. You simply have to be good of heart, loving and compassionate toward everybody. Next one...

3. God makes exceptions?

So, he didn't lie after all! He only meant that statement for the ones within Christianity's domain. The others, he will be the sole judge of.

God: Hey, instead of having one complete, simple message to salvation, I'll make it needlessly complicated. People within Christianity's message must be good of heart AND believe in Jesus. HAHAHA, poor bastards. And those born outside Christianity's domain, they must simply be good of heart.

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Now the second possibility, they are not saved [2].

Let's make this simple as possible.

1. God is not loving and just.

People don't have a choice where they are born. It's all chance. Let's hope to God you are born near the word. I said this earlier in reply to Big Mac regarding that justice must be met before you are saved: "Are you saying God created us to burn in hell? Is that love? Let's go back to the Adam and Eve story. Basically, God is condemning all of mankind because of what they did. Let me ask you a question. Do you think we should punish an innocent child for what their parents did? Is that justice?"

I'm sure anybody can see how unfair it would be if innocent people were to be damned to hell. Let's proceed...

2. Christianity is the wrong religion. (...)

Yeah... I'm not even going to go into this debate, it's outside the argument.

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And finally, the third possibility [3]. There is no heaven and hell.

1. God does NOT exist.

Nuff said.

Here's my best to make this as clear as I can. The humor is not to be taken personally, I just tried to show you how rediculous it all seems to me. Please chip away at my argument, I would love to be proved wrong.

Originally posted by Zander 88
Those outside Christianity's domain have three possibilities:
1. to be saved
2. to not be saved
3. nothing happens...

ONE of those MUST be picked.

"But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand" (John 10:26-29).

"Even before he made the world, God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes" (Ephesians 1:4).

"The Good News about the Kingdom will be preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it; and then the end will come" (Matthew 24:14).

"Some of the people of Israel have hard hearts, but this will last only until the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ" (Romans 11:25).
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God has chosen all those who are to be saved since 'before he made the world'. And none of them will be lost: "No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand." Where ever they are in the world, the Lord will find them. That is the purpose of the Good News being 'preached throughout the whole world, so that all nations will hear it'. As soon as 'the full number of Gentiles comes to Christ', then 'the end will come.' This process has been going on for some time now...

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EDIT:

"And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated." What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory--even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:10-24).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
"But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand" (John 10:26-29).

m the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?" (Romans 9:10-24).

You believe God predetermined who would go to heaven already, correct? If this is correct, then you still don't avoid the problem. The people incapable of being saved would fall into the 2nd possibility, 1st case: God is not loving and just. God created some people to burn in hell for all eternity. They had no choice. period. I don't even have to get into the case of remote location, as free will is the primary problem. Is this God loving? Why would he do such a terrible thing? Why not just create those who were predetermined, and not create those who would inevitable fall into eternal suffering?