What happens....

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Impressive flamebait...

That's my honest opinion - call it what you will. I couldn't care less if you respond to it or not. I expect most debates in here to end in impasse anyway. Whether it happens sooner, or later, makes little difference.

Edit: I noticed you left out the paragraph about interpretation.

Originally posted by Zander 88
to the people who have never heard of God or the bible. They have never had the opportunity to read the bible, given their remote location. They have never met a Christian in their life. What will happen to them? Basically, there's a whole lot of people you have to consider. As soon as Jesus died and left his message, everyone had to believe or perish. So, ...[text shortened]... e to their good chance of location near Jesus. Is this a just and loving God, or a God of luck?

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=What+happens+to+those+that+never+here+of+Jesus
http://www.kencollins.com/question-26.htm

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]I have no reason to follow corrupt authority. I'm trying to get you to realize that God doesn't exist, else you have to admit he is evil, or not a "Christian" God. That's the argument.

That's a flawed argument. I don't have to admit that He is evil, because scripture says explicitly that He is holy and good. Neither do I have to ...[text shortened]... ou'll see the truth about God before it's too late, is if God has mercy on you.[/b]

I see...

Is there any reason you are avoiding my answers to your questions? Do you admit you're wrong? I seriously cannot see how he is loving and just with the predetermination concept you believe in. If you don't provide a good answer, then you must admit at the very least that your conception of Christ needs some work.

Originally posted by RBHILL
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=What+happens+to+those+that+never+here+of+Jesus
http://www.kencollins.com/question-26.htm

Thank you for the link. I checked out the first two, and I'm not impressed. Basically, they can't answer the question so they say something like "have faith in God", etc. What angers me is they accuse the person trying to figure out the question by being idle and such. It's the fundamental problem with believers of any faith... they can't accept the possibility that they may be wrong, so they just push the issue away...

Originally posted by Zander 88
I see...

Is there any reason you are avoiding my answers to your questions? Do you admit you're wrong? I seriously cannot see how he is loving and just with the predetermination concept you believe in. If you don't provide a good answer, then you must admit at the very least that your conception of Christ needs some work.

I have a good answer, the problem is, it's not the one you want to hear.

The assumptions you've made about God are woefully inaccurate, from your view of sin (that it's God's fault), to what constitutes a loving God, to what it means when the omniscient God says He knows from the foundation of the world who is saved or not. You've shown yourself to have a poor grasp of the most basic concepts and foundational principles of biblical understanding. What's the point of arguing against your conclusions when your premises aren't even bible-based? I have no idea where to start setting you straight; we'd have to start at Genesis and go through chapter by chapter in order to show how sloppy and prejudiced your exegesis is.

Here are some basic understandings you should know first:

1) It is not God's fault that mankind fell, it was a clear and definite act of disobedience against God's will which caused the fall; Satan was the tempter, not God.

2) God had to cast Adam and Eve out of the garden in order to save them; if they had stayed they would have eaten of the tree of life and lived forever in a fallen state (i.e. none at all, let alone a few, would be saved).

3) Because of the fall, all men and women have been condemned to death (both physical and spiritual death). Therefore, God planned in advance for Jesus Christ to die for their sins, that whoever might believe in Him would be saved from that death.

4) The Spirit of God strives with all men at one time or another. Men and women have the free will to either obey Him or reject Him. We are not preprogrammed robots and are indeed responsible for our eternal destiny.

5) While we are free to choose to obey the Son of God or disobey Him based on our own personal desires and motives, thus bearing the responsibility of our eternal destiny, it nevertheless remains true to say that God has predetermined those who shall receive His grace and those who will not.

6) The mystery of God's grace lies between these two truths: that we have the free will to choose whether to obey Jesus Christ or not, and that God has predetermined from before time began who shall inherit His kingdom. The root of this mystery is our fundamental misunderstanding of God's divine perspective on the world, which is decidedly omniscient and omnipresent.

7) God has condemned all men and women to death, not arbitrarily, but because God Himself is holy. His holy being is infinitely pure and cannot abide that which is impure. Therefore, all who have sinned, die (are cast into outer darkness forever). God's holy nature is the arbiter, and condemnation is irrevocable and inexorable.

8) God shows His righteousness and His love for His creation by sending Jesus Christ as a perfectly holy sacrifice in our place on the cross, thereby canceling out the debt of sin which had hitherto condemned us to destruction, for all who simply believe in Him.

9) Outside of Jesus Christ, who is the only way into God good graces, God Himself is a consuming fire, whose holy anger destroys every trace of His enemies. Outside of Jesus Christ, it doesn't matter how nice or good a person you are, you will be consumed.

10) We cannot take the holiness of God too seriously. This is a Being Who has always existed, without beginning or end, and Who always will exist. Seriously, who, if confronted with such a Being, could do anything other than fall flat on his or her face and worship Him. Calling God evil and passing Him off as some side-show is the height of folly.

Originally posted by Zander 88
Tell me why God didn't make one simple message to salvation, the one of being good of heart. He obviously can save people with that criteria, so why did he also have to include Jesus into the mix for those capable of hearing his word? Makes no sense at all...

i don't know. plain and simple. i can surmise, but that would not be a proper answer methinks. 😛

i will, however, surmise that it is little different to be a christian and saved and to be a non-christian and saved...

indeed, a whole new thread has been started on this topic. it's called "Why did Christ die?" and i think you'll like it 😉

Originally posted by genius
i don't know. plain and simple. i can surmise, but that would not be a proper answer methinks. 😛

i will, however, surmise that it is little different to be a christian and saved and to be a non-christian and saved...

indeed, a whole new thread has been started on this topic. it's called "Why did Christ die?" and i think you'll like it 😉

😞

That is ok. At the very least, I got you to think about your beliefs.
I'm hesitant to go in and start another brawl. I'm getting tired of arguing...but whatever. I'll skim it and see if I have anything productive to say.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I have a good answer, the problem is, it's not the one you want to hear.

The assumptions you've made about God are woefully inaccurate, from your view of sin (that it's God's fault), to what constitutes a loving God, to what it means when the omniscient God says He knows from the foundation of the world who is saved or not. You've shown yourself to ...[text shortened]... m. Calling God evil and passing Him off as some side-show is the height of folly.

First off, I'm not trying to argue against Biblical text. I'm arguing against your beliefs, and you are bringing in text to support your stance. Now I'm not going to address all 10 points you've outlined above. Instead, I will pick out the key concepts you are trying to illuminate from within those points. Any objections so far? If not I carry on with my next post.

Originally posted by Zander 88
First off, I'm not trying to argue against Biblical text. I'm arguing against your beliefs, and you are bringing in text to support your stance. Now I'm not going to address all 10 points you've outlined above. Instead, I will pick out the key concepts you are trying to illuminate from within those points. Any objections so far? If not I carry on with my next post.

First off, I'm not trying to argue against Biblical text. I'm arguing against your beliefs, and you are bringing in text to support your stance.

FYI, the biblical texts are my beliefs.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]First off, I'm not trying to argue against Biblical text. I'm arguing against your beliefs, and you are bringing in text to support your stance.

FYI, the biblical texts are my beliefs.[/b]

Do you mean to say that you take the text word for word? ...Or perhaps you pick and choose the text that supports a belief derived from the Bible? If you can elaborate on this, it would be helpful to me in understanding your position.

Originally posted by Zander 88
Do you mean to say that you take the text word for word? ...Or perhaps you pick and choose the text that supports a belief derived from the Bible? If you can elaborate on this, it would be helpful to me in understanding your position.

I believe the bible is the word of God and Holy Spirit inspired. Whatever positions I take will (hopefully) be supported scripturally. I do not pick and choose scripture, but seek truth through incorporation of the whole, e.g. I believe the NT is in the OT concealed, and the OT is in the NT revealed.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
I have a good answer, the problem is, it's not the one you want to hear.

The assumptions you've made about God are woefully inaccurate, from your view of sin (that it's God's fault), to what constitutes a loving God, to what it means when the omniscient God says He knows from the foundation of the world who is saved or not. You've shown yourself to m. Calling God evil and passing Him off as some side-show is the height of folly.

I think points 4, 5 and 6 are the heart of my argument. I don't understand how [free will] and [predetermination] can coexist. If free will exists, then it nullifies predetermination, and vice versa. Can you give me a better explanation, through both your own words and scripture supporting this paradox?

Originally posted by Zander 88
I think points 4, 5 and 6 are the heart of my argument. I don't understand how [free will] and [predetermination] can coexist. If free will exists, then it nullifies predetermination, and vice versa. Can you give me a better explanation, through both your own words and scripture supporting this paradox?

The mystery involved is manifold:

No one comes to the Son unless the Father first draws him, the Holy Spirit produces faith, faith which is a gift from God, yet faith is also something one needs to actively keep, without wavering, without drawing back; nevertheless such obedience is also the result of God's grace. God gives the power to obey, yet the ultimate decision to obey remains shrouded in mystery: "No one can know a person’s thoughts except that person’s own spirit" (1 Corinthians 2:11). Therefore, it can be said that faith in Jesus Christ is both arrived at voluntarily and involuntarily (thus, the mystery). Many are called, yet only those who remain faithful are chosen. It's accurate to claim that God chooses those who receive His kingdom, yet also accurate to say we receive God's kingdom through a volitional act of faith (vistesd added that this cooperative element of grace is called, 'synergy'😉.
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Here are various scriptures which delineate the mystery involved:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up" (John 6:44).

"By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God" (Ephesians 2:8).

"For the time has come for judgment, and it must begin with God’s household. And if judgment begins with us, what terrible fate awaits those who have never obeyed God’s Good News? And also,“If the righteous are barely saved, what will happen to godless sinners?” (1 Peter 4:17-18).

"Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience" (1 Timothy 3:9).

"I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith" (2 Timothy 4:7).

"Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering" (Hebrews 10:23).

"Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him" (Hebrews 10:38).

"Jesus the author and finisher of our faith" (Hebrews 12:2).

"Kept by the power of God through faith" (1 Peter 1:5).

"For many are called, but few are chosen" (Matthew 22:14).

"We have received grace . . . for obedience to the faith" (Romans 1:5).

"God the Father knew you and chose you long ago, and his Spirit has made you holy. As a result, you have obeyed him and have been cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ" (1 Peter 1:2).

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life" (John 3:16).

"But you don’t believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them away from me, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than anyone else. No one can snatch them from the Father’s hand" (John 10:26-29).

"If you live by [your sinful nature's] dictates, you will die. But if through the power of the Spirit you put to death the deeds of your sinful nature, you will live. For all who are led by the Spirit of God are children of God" (Romans 8:13-14).

"“Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.” Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen. For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either" (Romans 11:19-21).

"My Spirit shall not forever dwell and strive with man" (Genesis 6:3).
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The Spirit of God, Who strives with all men at one time or another, gives one a choice between obeying His Spirit or one's own sinful nature; between seeking God and seeking provision for the flesh. Those who are chosen seek God and are enduringly faithful, while those who are destined to destruction ignore God and follow the desires of their flesh. The mystery is in the 'synergetic' aspect of grace, which involves one's willingness in the process of grace. Since God is omnipresent and omniscient, before He created the world he foreknew who would be enduringly faithful and pronounced them His 'elect', His 'chosen ones'. Those who cease to trust in Jesus Christ, however, are just as easily removed from among the elect. From God's perspective, everything is foreknown, while from our perspective nothing is determined and we are free to choose either obedience or disobedience when the Holy Spirit strives with us (when we sense the promptings of the Spirit). Whether we are believers or not, God holds us accountable for ignoring the Spirit:

"Every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come" (Matthew 12:31-32).

Originally posted by twhitehead
Justice and forgiveness are incompatible concepts.

Also knightmeister in another thread argues that if you have enough knowledge of God or Jesus to make an informed decision then your decision will be caused and thus not free. So he claims that God must keep you in the dark in order to maintain free will.

This is misrepresenting me I'm afraid. The point I was making was if God appeared in front of you what would you do? Would feel able to say , not today God , Id rather just not bother? But you are right , God is hiding himself partially , he's holding off blowing the whole thing we call "reality" or the universe apart. When the stars fall from the sky and the material world melts away in front of you like some flimsy polythene to reveal something so utterly incredible behind it .....then ..it might be too late to start making choices. We would all become very aware of where we stood in relation to God.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
The mystery involved is manifold:

No one comes to the Son unless the Father first draws him, the Holy Spirit produces faith, faith which is a gift from God, yet faith is also something one needs to actively keep, without wavering, without drawing back; nevertheless such obedience is also the result of God's grace. God gives the power to obey, yet the or in the world to come" (Matthew 12:31-32).

Are you saying free will is an illusion?

If this is a 2-part process, then aren't the people born away from Christianity being robbed of their free will?