What happens....

Originally posted by Zander 88
Those outside Christianity's domain have three possibilities:
1. to be saved
2. to not be saved
3. nothing happens...

ONE of those MUST be picked.
Let's first imagine that they are saved [1]. What does this mean?

1. God lied. (lol...)

As Big Mac said in an earlier post, "Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth, and the life. Noone comes to the Fa ...[text shortened]... Please chip away at my argument, I would love to be proved wrong.

1. God is not loving and just.

God is just in condemning mankind to hell in the first place. God is under no obligation to save anyone. His mercy and grace are given to the poor of this world; those humbled enough to receive Him (see James 2:5). That's just the way things are, and until one wholeheartedly submits to Jesus Christ, the way things are will always be a cause for indignation.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
[b]1. God is not loving and just.

God is just in condemning mankind to hell in the first place. God is under no obligation to save anyone. His mercy and grace are given to the poor of this world; those humbled enough to receive Him (see James 2:5). That's just the way things are, and until one wholeheartedly submits to Jesus Christ, the way things are will always be a cause for indignation.[/b]

God is just in condemning mankind to hell in the first place. God is under no obligation to save anyone.

elaborate. Why is he just in doing so? It's not his duty to throw out a life-preserver?

His mercy and grace are given to the poor of this world; those humbled enough to receive Him (see James 2:5).

There is no talk of somebody willing to recieve Jesus. It's all illusion, as God has predetermined the saved and the damned.

That's just the way things are, and until one wholeheartedly submits to Jesus Christ, the way things are will always be a cause for indignation.

This is the most important question that i want you to answer: If God predetermined the saved and the damned, you cannot consider him to be a loving and just God. Basically, he created some humans to suffer in eternal damnation. What are his just and/or loving reasons for doing this?

Originally posted by Zander 88
[b]God is just in condemning mankind to hell in the first place. God is under no obligation to save anyone.

elaborate. Why is he just in doing so? It's not his duty to throw out a life-preserver?

His mercy and grace are given to the poor of this world; those humbled enough to receive Him (see James 2:5).

There is no talk of somebody wil umans to suffer in eternal damnation. What are his just and/or loving reasons for doing this?[/b]

God is just in condemning mankind to hell in the first place. God is under no obligation to save anyone.

elaborate. Why is he just in doing so?

"For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard" (Romans 3:23).

It's not his duty to throw out a life-preserver?

Jesus Christ is the life-preserver. A stumbling-block for some; the way to salvation for some.

His mercy and grace are given to the poor of this world; those humbled enough to receive Him (see James 2:5).

There is no talk of somebody willing to recieve Jesus. It's all illusion, as God has predetermined the saved and the damned.

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them to me, and at the last day I will raise them up" (John 6:44).

Without being drawn (humbled) people won't care enough to believe in Jesus Christ. A person cannot help but be humbled by the holy presence of God; only then is that person confronted with the true wretchedness of his or her own sinful nature. At which point that person cries out for forgiveness and mercy and is saved.

That's just the way things are, and until one wholeheartedly submits to Jesus Christ, the way things are will always be a cause for indignation.

This is the most important question that i want you to answer: If God predetermined the saved and the damned, you cannot consider him to be a loving and just God. Basically, he created some humans to suffer in eternal damnation. What are his just and/or loving reasons for doing this?

"Even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles" (Romans 9:22-24).

Originally posted by Zander 88
[b]God is just in condemning mankind to hell in the first place. God is under no obligation to save anyone.

elaborate. Why is he just in doing so? It's not his duty to throw out a life-preserver?

His mercy and grace are given to the poor of this world; those humbled enough to receive Him (see James 2:5).

There is no talk of somebody wil ...[text shortened]... umans to suffer in eternal damnation. What are his just and/or loving reasons for doing this?[/b]

This is a hard reality to come to terms with. I don't blame you for being angry and confused. God's ways are not our ways. The bottom line is, God's kingdom is available to you right now through obedience to Jesus Christ. It's not your problem what happens to everybody else. We are each to give account for ourselves, not for others.

Originally posted by Zander 88
Oh. So God makes exceptions to those who have never heard the word. That makes sense.... NOT! 🙂

You can't have it both ways. If the only way to God is through Jesus himself, why would God lie? You accept the bible as God's word. Why would he lie? You must either accept that Jesus is a metaphor for love, or that God has lied to you.

Gos is love. If anything love is a metaphor for love, not God a metaphor for love.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
This is a hard reality to come to terms with. I don't blame you for being angry and confused. God's ways are not our ways. The bottom line is, God's kingdom is available to you right now through obedience to Jesus Christ. It's not your problem what happens to everybody else. We are each to give account for ourselves, not for others.

If God specifically created people "destined for destruction" then quite simply, he is pure evil. There is no denying this! I am not willing to place my faith in him when he commits such atrocities.

God's ways are not our ways.

This is your final, desperate defense, when all reason fails you. You are too emotionally attached and are not willing to imagine the possibility that you may be wrong. Please tell me why a loving God would give us a mind capable of critical thinking and then pull this BS. He's giving you the illusion, without a doubt, that his ways are evil, but he is still expecting you to love him? And no, you are not capable of seeing through this illusion. It's like saying 2+2=5. This is absurd!

Originally posted by genius
Gos is love. If anything love is a metaphor for love, not God a metaphor for love.

If I understand your arguments correctly, you would fall in this category:

3. God makes exceptions?

So, he didn't lie after all! He only meant that statement for the ones within Christianity's domain. The others, he will be the sole judge of.

God: Hey, instead of having one complete, simple message to salvation, I'll make it needlessly complicated. People within Christianity's message must be good of heart AND believe in Jesus. HAHAHA, poor bastards. And those born outside Christianity's domain, they must simply be good of heart.

Tell me why God didn't make one simple message to salvation, the one of being good of heart. He obviously can save people with that criteria, so why did he also have to include Jesus into the mix for those capable of hearing his word? Makes no sense at all...

Originally posted by Zander 88
If God specifically created people "destined for destruction" then quite simply, he is pure evil. There is no denying this! I am not willing to place my faith in him when he commits such atrocities.

[b]God's ways are not our ways.

This is your final, desperate defense, when all reason fails you. You are too emotionally attached and are not willin ...[text shortened]... ou are not capable of seeing through this illusion. It's like saying 2+2=5. This is absurd![/b]

This is the usual impasse. His fundamentalist Christian views are incoherent unless words like love, justice, and mercy are radically redefined. At that point, the skeptic and theist are speaking different languages.

Originally posted by Zander 88
If God specifically created people "destined for destruction" then quite simply, he is pure evil. There is no denying this! I am not willing to place my faith in him when he commits such atrocities.

[b]God's ways are not our ways.

This is your final, desperate defense, when all reason fails you. You are too emotionally attached and are not willin ou are not capable of seeing through this illusion. It's like saying 2+2=5. This is absurd![/b]

Why is it absurd? Wouldn't you assume that God, if He is God, is the one and only authority over His creation? Does He not, then, have the right to do with creation according to His will? Who are we to call God evil? Did He cause us to sin? No. Is He obligated to save us? No.

What is sin? Sin is disobedience. What is disobedience? Refusal to obey authority. The root of mankind's problem with God is a refusal to obey His absolute authority. That's what this whole argument is really about: refusal to recognize and obey God's inherent authority. God gave us minds capable of critical thinking skills, yes, but how have those skills profited you, if they don't reveal to you the absurdity of somehow righteously condemning God as evil?

The tree which Adam and Eve ate from was the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. After they ate from it their eyes were opened and could recognize good from evil. The problem was, after disobeying God and being cast out of the garden, this meant that they had to rely on themselves to know what is right and what is wrong. Henceforth, mankind has been cursed with love of self and self-will rather than love for God and God's will (His authority). On top of that, because Satan lied to Eve about God's motives, mankind has been under a curse of suspicion of God's authority.

Is it any surprise, then, that we are sinners, yet condemn God as evil? That is what is absurd.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
This is the usual impasse. His fundamentalist Christian views are incoherent unless words like love, justice, and mercy are radically redefined. At that point, the skeptic and theist are speaking different languages.

The fundamental difference is, we use the word of God to define our understanding of love, justice and mercy. Whereas, the skeptic uses his own preconceived notions of what love, justice and mercy are, and superimposes them onto scripture, inevitably leading to inconsistency of interpretation. Instead of redefining his own notions, the skeptic assumes such inconsistencies to be the fault of the text, rather than the inaccuracy of his own preconceived notions.

"Fools think their own way is right, but the wise listen to others" (Proverbs 12:15).

"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!" (Isaiah 5:20-21).

"So don’t be misled, my dear brothers and sisters. Whatever is good and perfect comes down to us from God our Father, who created all the lights in the heavens. He never changes or casts a shifting shadow" (James 1:16-17).

"This is the message we heard from Jesus and now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all" (1 John 1:5).

Originally posted by epiphinehas
Why is it absurd? Wouldn't you assume that God, if He is God, is the one and only authority over His creation? Does He not, then, have the right to do with creation according to His will? Who are we to call God evil? Did He cause us to sin? No. Is He obligated to save us? No.

What is sin? Sin is disobedience. What is disobedience? Ref ise, then, that we are sinners, yet condemn God as evil? That is what is absurd.

If God specifically created people "destined for destruction" then quite simply, he is pure evil. There is no denying this! I am not willing to place my faith in him when he commits such atrocities.

That's the argument.

Wouldn't you assume that God, if He is God, is the one and only authority over His creation? Does He not, then, have the right to do with creation according to His will?

Yeah, he can do anything he wants to do with it. What he has done is far from loving (refer to argument). He is not a loving god.

Who are we to call God evil? Did He cause us to sin? No. Is He obligated to save us? No.

"destined for destruction" --your own words. I would definately say he caused us to sin. And the 2nd question is irrelevant. As you admit, he already predetermined the saved and damned.

That's what this whole argument is really about: refusal to recognize and obey God's inherent authority.

I have no reason to follow corrupt authority. I'm trying to get you to realize that God doesn't exist, else you have to admit he is evil, or not a "Christian" God. That's the argument.

God gave us minds capable of critical thinking skills, yes, but how have those skills profited you, if they don't reveal to you the absurdity of somehow righteously condemning God as evil?

That's the point! I have shown good reason as to why it is a fallacy to believe God is a "Christian" God. If you think he still is, then YOU are saying he is evil. Also, which is most pertinent to you, why predetermination is wrong/evil.

The problem was, after disobeying God and being cast out of the garden, this meant that they had to rely on themselves to know what is right and what is wrong

Disobeying God? Is that a joke? God created them "destined for destruction". God predetermined the saved and the damned. This is all according to his plan. Don't blame the robot for being programmed for destruction, blame the designer.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
The fundamental difference is, we use the word of God to define our understanding of love, justice and mercy. Whereas, the skeptic uses his own preconceived notions of what love, justice and mercy are, and superimposes them onto scripture, inevitably leading to inconsistency of interpretation. Instead of redefining his own notions, the skeptic assumes ...[text shortened]... now declare to you: God is light, and there is no darkness in him at all" (1 John 1:5).

How are we to make sense of that which is outside what we were programmed for? That is why the argument of "God's ways are not our ways" fails. If God, being the just and loving God he is, wanted us to understand him, then he has done an unbelievable retarded thing. He made it impossibile for us to understand his message without knowingly decieving ourselves. It's like God writing his message on paper and expecting a blind man to "see" it. Not going to happen without the blind man making stuff up.

Originally posted by epiphinehas
The fundamental difference is, we use the word of God to define our understanding of love, justice and mercy. Whereas, the skeptic uses his own preconceived notions of what love, justice and mercy are, and superimposes them onto scripture, inevitably leading to inconsistency of interpretation.

And you don't?

It's funny: You try to read the Bible 100% literally, yet must radically re-define the words that are not convenient for your position. One wonders if you've picked the right words to redefine, or if you've got the proper credentials to make said decision.

I think you're superimposing your sadistic lust for human blood over the scripture, with predictable results: A God who kills thousands at whim without deigning to offer any explanation, who is nevertheless praised as honorable, merciful, loving, just, and other blatant sarcasms.

Originally posted by SwissGambit
I think you're superimposing your sadistic lust for human blood over the scripture, with predictable results: A God who kills thousands at whim without deigning to offer any explanation, who is nevertheless praised as honorable, merciful, loving, just, and other blatant sarcasms.

Impressive flamebait...

Originally posted by Zander 88
If God specifically created people "destined for destruction" then quite simply, he is pure evil. There is no denying this! I am not willing to place my faith in him when he commits such atrocities.

That's the argument.

Wouldn't you assume that God, if He is God, is the one and only authority over His creation? Does He not, then, have the right t 't blame the robot for being programmed for destruction, blame the designer.

I have no reason to follow corrupt authority. I'm trying to get you to realize that God doesn't exist, else you have to admit he is evil, or not a "Christian" God. That's the argument.

That's a flawed argument. I don't have to admit that He is evil, because scripture says explicitly that He is holy and good. Neither do I have to admit that He is not a 'Christian' God, simply based on your own misconception of what a 'Christian' God is. Also, I know from personal experience that God exists, so getting me to 'realize' He doesn't exist is not possible.

The truth of the matter is, you are the one in need of making a choice: are you going to believe in Jesus Christ and inherit eternal life, or will you reject Him? Furthermore, you are making accusations against God based firmly in ignorance. You neither know nor appreciate the mystery involved in God's grace, and your prejudice against God prevents you from even attempting to discover it.

Truly, the only way you'll see the truth about God before it's too late, is if God has mercy on you.