21 Sep 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI am at a loss as to your point, are you saying that tongues is an
If I may add a little to the conversation, I would like to focus on the initiation of the miraculous gifts, tongues.
This is a topic that illustrates the need for believers in all ages to stay on task, relative to doctrine. When believers fail to keep their minds stayed on doctrine, the inevitable outcome will be a replacement of the doctrine with erra ...[text shortened]... Bible support such a stance, or were the miraculous gifts designated only for a specific time?
emotion, and not sound doctrine, what is it you are implying here?
Kelly
21 Sep 06
One of the occurances of the phrase we now term 'speaking in tongues' is found in Acts 10:45, during Peter's explanation to Cornelius the centurion along with his kinsmen and friends.
Talking to-Tongues
speaking to-languages
laleo glossa
Cornelius is representative of one of the four groups mentioned in the book of Acts as having received the gift of tongues as part of a post-salvation experience. As such, he represents the Gentiles. Also represented were the Jews (through the apostles and other believers in Jerusalem); Jewish Gentiles (as seen with the Samaritan); and the OT believers from the Jewish dispersions (as represented by the believers in Ephesus).
But what did the gift represent? Why would the gift of tongues be used how it was, when it was and by who it was? 'Tongues' is used here as 'a different language,' not so-called spiritual ecstatics. What should a different language have represented to the Jews of Jesus' day? That answer is found in the OT.
The first mention of a different language in the OT is found at the Tower of Babel. Instead of heeding God's command to go forth and repopulate the earth, man decided to gather in one spot with a mind toward 'making a name for himself.' Man refused to be scattered, intending instead to defy God with an edifice which would reach up into the heavens as a testament to what man had wrought.
So the first mention of different tongues is a situation wherein confusion ensued. This pattern is repeated throughout the OT, including in one of the cycles of discipline God warned the Israelites about. In Deut. 28:49, God warns the children of Israel if they persist in rebelling against Him, He will bring a nation against them whose tongue (lshnu, or tongue-of-him) they will not understand.
Jeremiah 5:15 uses the same phrase in warning the houses of Israel and Judah that because of their treacherous dealings against God, He would bring a nation from afar--- a nation whose language they did not know--- against them.
Isaiah 28:11 is a prophecy with near and far applications, warning of the impending destruction of the two kingdoms within the land. The kingdoms fell within 120 years of each other, and in varying degrees. First Ephraim in 721 BC at the hands of Sargon II, and then the slow fade of Judah, beginning in 605 and ending in 586 BC, when Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed by Babylon.
As seen in these citations, the Jew of Jesus' day should have seen the speaking of a foreign language as a sign of confusion, of being overthrown or set aside, of a foreign group taking over their territory. As Paul said in
I Corin. 14:21,22:
"In the law it is written, With [men of] other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear Me, saith the Lord.
Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not; but prophesying [serveth] not for them that believe not, but for them which believe."
On that day of Pentecost, the sign was being given to Israel that they were being set aside, overrun, as it were, by another group of people. The Judeans of Jesus' time were the lettered and learned of their people. The Galileans were the uncooth and uncultured, certainly not learned or skilled in foreign languages necessary for commerce and other exchanges of the day.
And yet the Galileans were now evangelizing the throng of devout people who had made the pilgrimage to Jersualem for the holy days--- in as many different tongues as were represented by the homeland of the thousands who had made the journey. There wasn't simply Greek, Hebrew and Latin. There was Coptic, Arabic and many other arcane languages, which by normal means were totally inaccessible to the roughnecks standing now in public view of the disbelieving Jew.
The reaction? Acts 2:12:
"And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this?"
Even after all of the history, all of the prophesy, just as God said they would react, the tongues of foreign languages being spoken in their very presence told them nothing. Within forty years (a generation), Jesrusalem was no more.
21 Sep 06
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI agree.
If I may add a little to the conversation, I would like to focus on the initiation of the miraculous gifts, tongues.
This is a topic that illustrates the need for believers in all ages to stay on task, relative to doctrine. When believers fail to keep their minds stayed on doctrine, the inevitable outcome will be a replacement of the doctrine with erra ...[text shortened]... Bible support such a stance, or were the miraculous gifts designated only for a specific time?
If something it is not from God, we should know where it comes from.
Allow me to quote from an article
(http://www.allanturner.com/tongues02.html)
Begining of my quote
The modern-day “tongue-speakers” or glossolalists, as they are often called, would have us believe that “their gift” comes from God; but it is apparent that it comes not from God but from man. The observations of Dr. John Kilbahl, a psycho-therapist who conducted a 10 year in-depth study of these modern-day tongue speakers, illustrates this very well:
Quote:
The importance of the leader was well illustrated by the fact that the style of glossolalia adapted by the group bore a close resemblance to the way in which the leader spoke. A linguist engaged in glossolalia research found that prominent visiting speakers affected whole groups of glossolalists. Although no two tongue-speakers sounded exactly alike, if the prominent leader spoke in a kind of Old Testament Hebraic style, those who were taught by him also spoke in this manner. If the leader of the group evidenced Spanish diction and mannerism, his followers also developed that style. It is not uncommon for linguists to be able to tell which prominent itinerant glossolalist has introduced a congregation to tongue-speaking. Relatively few men and women travel the tongue-speaking circuit. The glossolalist styles of Bennett, Bredesen, Christenson, du Plessis, Mjorud, and Stone are distinctive enough to be identifiable by observant linguists. (Kildahl, The Psychology of Speaking in Tongues, Harper & Rowe, 1972, page 53)
As to the nature of their “gift,” we can learn further from the instruction given by these tongue-speakers on receiving it:
Quote:
1 . Help the candidate see that the gift is already given and all he has to do is to receive it. 2. Lead him to realize that anyone who is saved through baptism is prepared to receive the baptism of the Spirit. 3. Tell him that when hands are laid upon him he will receive the Holy Spirit. 4. Tell the candidate he is to expect the Spirit to move on his vocal chords, but that he must cooperate with the experience as well. 5. Tell him to throw away all fear that this experience might be false. 6. Tell him to open his mouth wide and breathe as deeply as possible, at the same time telling himself that he is receiving the Spirit now. (G.E. Stiles, The Gift of the Holy Spirit, page 104 [cited by Morton T. Kelsey, Tongue-Speaking, Doubleday, 1964, page 801)
Before concluding this article, we would like to once again quote Dr. Kildahl:
Quote:
We attended many meetings where glossolalia both occurred and was interpreted, and noted that the interpretations were usually of a very general nature. After a segment of tongue-speech, an interpreter commonly offered the explanation that the speaker had been thanking and praising God for many blessings. Another frequent theme was that the speaker was asking for strength and guidance for himself and others.
However, perhaps a third of the time, the interpreter offered specific interpretations of what glossolalists said. More rarely, an interpreter 'translated,' phrase by phrase and sentence by sentence. In order to investigate the accuracy of these interpretations, we undertook to play a taped example of tongue-speech privately for several different interpreters of tongues. In no instance was there any similarity in the several interpretations. The following typifies our results: One interpreter said the tongue-speaker was praying for the health of his children; another that the same tongue-speech was an expression of gratitude to God for a recently successful church fund-raising effort.
When confronted with the disparity between their interpretations, the interpreter offered the explanation that God gave to one person one interpretation of the speech and to another person another interpretation. They showed no defensiveness about being cross-examined and generously upheld alternative interpretations as equally valid...
We know of a man who was raised in Africa, the son of missionary parents, who decided—rather cynically perhaps—to test the interpretation of tongues. At the appropriate moment, he rose and spoke the Lord's prayer in the African dialect he had learned in his youth. When he sat down, an interpreter of tongues at once offered the meaning of what he said. He interpreted it as a message of the imminent second coming of Christ. (Kildahl, op. cit., pages 62,63)
End of my quote
Regards
22 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensJust a little scary, in my opinion.
I agree.
If something it is not from God, we should know where it comes from.
Allow me to quote from an article
(http://www.allanturner.com/tongues02.html)
[b]Begining of my quote
The modern-day “tongue-speakers” or glossolalists, as they are often called, would have us believe that “their gift” comes from God; but it is apparent that i ...[text shortened]... econd coming of Christ. (Kildahl, op. cit., pages 62,63)
End of my quote
Regards[/b]
22 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensOne heads up, I do not for one sec believe you have to speak
I agree.
If something it is not from God, we should know where it comes from.
Allow me to quote from an article
(http://www.allanturner.com/tongues02.html)
[b]Begining of my quote
The modern-day “tongue-speakers” or glossolalists, as they are often called, would have us believe that “their gift” comes from God; but it is apparent that i ...[text shortened]... econd coming of Christ. (Kildahl, op. cit., pages 62,63)
End of my quote
Regards[/b]
in tongues to be saved. I even don't believe you have to accept the
Holy Spirit manifesting Himself in the body to be saved too, what
matters is your walk with Jesus Christ and your fellow man. This is
a matter of discussion where I believe God's Word requires the last
say, not some guy, or urban legend over the scripture. God desire
is for us to walk in truth, and nothing but the Word is required to
get to botton of this topic.
Kelly
22 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayHi,
One heads up, I do not for one sec believe you have to speak
in tongues to be saved. I even don't believe you have to accept the
Holy Spirit manifesting Himself in the body to be saved too, what
matters is your walk with Jesus Christ and your fellow man. This is
a matter of discussion where I believe God's Word requires the last
say, not some guy, or u ...[text shortened]... to walk in truth, and nothing but the Word is required to
get to botton of this topic.
Kelly
...what matters is your walk with Jesus Christ and your fellow man.
I agree.
This is a matter of discussion where I believe God's Word requires the last say, not some guy, or urban legend over the scripture. God desire is for us to walk in truth, and nothing but the Word is required to get to botton of this topic.
Right, God's Word should be enough. If from God's Word we get to the conclusion that something is wrong, we should condemn it using the Scriptues to base our allegation. That's what we've been doing.
I quoted part of an article that uses the Scriptures to support its claims.
In this context, it is not wrong to address bad handling of God's Word, by exposing what is happening in some (many) denominations.
Regards
22 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensHave you found any area of Scripture that condemn something as wrong where you feel it is in error?
Hi,
[b]...what matters is your walk with Jesus Christ and your fellow man.
I agree.
This is a matter of discussion where I believe God's Word requires the last say, not some guy, or urban legend over the scripture. God desire is for us to walk in truth, and nothing but the Word is required to get to botton of this topic.
Right, God's ...[text shortened]... ling of God's Word, by exposing what is happening in some (many) denominations.
Regards[/b]
22 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by xpoferensBegining of my quote
Hi,
[b]...what matters is your walk with Jesus Christ and your fellow man.
I agree.
This is a matter of discussion where I believe God's Word requires the last say, not some guy, or urban legend over the scripture. God desire is for us to walk in truth, and nothing but the Word is required to get to botton of this topic.
Right, God's ling of God's Word, by exposing what is happening in some (many) denominations.
Regards[/b]
The modern-day “tongue-speakers” or glossolalists, as they are often called, would have us believe that “their gift” comes from God; but it is apparent that it comes not from God but from man. The observations of Dr. John Kilbahl, a psycho-therapist who conducted a 10 year in-depth study of these modern-day tongue speakers, illustrates this very well:
I mean no disrespect towards you, but if I'm going to be told
something is not from God I am not going to go to guy who did a
study, but scripture and prayer. There are a lot of bright honest people
on this site who I have a lot of respect for, they do not believe
anything is from God, and have written quite a bit to make those
points known. So should we stop the presses and call it a day? You
must be able to show me in scripture the points you have made and
todate you have to read into the Word your beliefs not simply
accept what is there as it is.
You are saying the manifestations of the Spirit of God today are not
really from God, if they are not of God what are they from? I believe
this to be very important, for both our sakes, more so because it has
to do with the gospel of Jesus Christ than it does if you are right, or I
am right. I do believe God accepts those that turn towards Him in
Jesus’ name, I’m not at all saying you are not saved by your beliefs
on this matter, so know that isn’t at issue here in my opinion. I
believe it is important, because it is part of the gospel, and the truth
of God with us. Jesus said it was important for Him to go so that the
Holy Spirit would come to us, that the Holy Spirit would lead us and
teach us that is an important part of why Jesus left. We already had
written text in the Old Testament and even with the written text of the
Old Testament there were movements of God with man during those
times too.
The letter kills but the Spirit gives us life and there are times I’ll
admit that when the Spirit of God moves through a congregation that
people get emotional, Love has that effect on us, and on top of that I
do not see anything wrong with that. People get happy and emotional
over sporting events and if that is allowed and thought of as normal
why not God?
I'll ask this a 2nd time you are saying the manifisations of the Spirit
of God today are not really manifisations of the Spirit of God, if they
are not of God what are they from? I'll try to make this easy on you
too, I'm not going to be offended by whatever your answer is. I
believe truth is at stake here and the truth should be able to stand
in the light of day, if it must be hid in the dark we have something
to worry about.
Kelly
22 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensUh, you mean ask it a different way? OK I'll try.
Hi kirksey,
Could you please reformulate your question?
Thanks.
You said that if Scripture conndemns something as wrong, we should stand against that in support of what Scripture says. I was asking if you ever found any contradictions between what you read in the Bible and what you feel in your heart is right or wrong.
22 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayyou are suggesting that those who speak in tongues today according to you have more to do with the devil than God?
I just want to bring out all your beliefs in the open, you are suggesting
that those who speak in tongues today according to you have more
to do with the devil than God?
Kelly
Not exactly, KJ, but I am not ruling out demon influence as a factor, either. While a good deal of the tongues movement is executed by believers, there are certainly demon-possessed people out there, as well.
The believers, while possibly influenced (believers cannot be possessed) by demons, are typically simply running off of emotion. The gibberish that they spew is little more than ecstatics unrelated to anything spiritual. While we do not need the confirmation of any field of science to determine the spiritual validity of any human experience, the study cited nonetheless simply confirms what the Bible has taught regarding tongues.
22 Sep 06
Originally posted by kirksey957Thanks for writing it a different way.
Uh, you mean ask it a different way? OK I'll try.
You said that if Scripture conndemns something as wrong, we should stand against that in support of what Scripture says. I was asking if you ever found any contradictions between what you read in the Bible and what you feel in your heart is right or wrong.
Yes, sometimes I find some contradictions between what I read in the Bible and what I feel in my heart, but since my wisdom is foolishness compared to God's, these contradictions tend to fade away.
"He who trusts in his own heart is a fool...." Proverbs 28:26
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, 'He catches the wise in their own craftiness'; and again, 'The Lord knows the thoughts of the wise, that they are futile.'" 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
"...the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." 1 Corinthians 2:14-15
"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are saved it is the power of God. For it is written: 'I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.'
"Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
"For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, but to those who are called, both Jews. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men." 1 Corinthians 1:18-25
"The fool has said in his heart, 'There is no God.' Psalm 53:1
"Fools mock at sin, but among the upright there is favor." Proverbs 14:9
"A fool has no delight in understanding, but in expressing his own heart." Proverbs 18:2
"For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools..." Romans 1:20-22
"The heart of the wise is in the house of mourning, But the heart of fools is in the house of mirth. It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise than for a man to hear the song of fools. For like the crackling of thorns under a pot, so is the laughter of the fool. This also is vanity." Ecclesiastes 7:4-6
He who walks with wise men will be wise, but the companion of fools will be destroyed." Proverbs 13:20
"The way of a fool is right in his own eyes, but he who heeds counsel is wise." Proverbs 12:15
Take care
22 Sep 06
Originally posted by xpoferensThose are all very general in nature. Let me be specific with some examples. In your belief systen is it permissible for women to preach in church? Is it a sin for women to have short hair? Should women be isolated while on their period?
Thanks for writing it a different way.
Yes, sometimes I find some contradictions between what I read in the Bible and what I feel in my heart, but since my wisdom is foolishness compared to God's, these contradictions tend to fade away.
"He who trusts in his own heart is a fool...." Proverbs 28:26
"For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with ...[text shortened]... but he who heeds counsel is wise." Proverbs 12:15
Take care