What is salvation?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Thank you for your responses I'm going to respond and want to
put a little time in thinking about what you have said. I do not want
to just write an off the cuff response to you since we both hold what
we think is true close to our hearts.
Kelly

Sure Kelly, no problem, take your time.

Anyway, I still have one of your posts to answer.

Regards

Originally posted by xpoferens
Sure Kelly, no problem, take your time.

Anyway, I still have one of your posts to answer.

Regards

I'm working on this, just not a lot of time now.
Kelly

Originally posted by xpoferens
Hi again,

You are doing it again, the Holy Spirit is coming to guide us into all
truth, the manifestations of the Spirit if referred to as the gifts of the
Spirit, you cannot be guided unless you following, your linkage of the
words ‘all truth’ to ‘scriptural text’ still has not be made scripturally
only in you expressing your opinion so far. ...[text shortened]... ly, I don't see how you can make a stronger case for your opinion than from mine.

Take care.

1 Corinthians 13: 8-13
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

I simply don’t see how you get your doctrine that God has removed
His gifts from the church from this scripture. This portion of scripture
does talk about the gifts no longer being needed, just as it speaks
about how now we see in a mirror dimly, and that there will be a time
when we will be face to face, now we know in part, and then we will be
fully known. This to me speaks more about the Kingdom of God
coming in fully into this universe where those gifts are no longer
required. We will for example no longer need to have healing when no
one is getting sick, we don’t need prophecy or tongues when God is
with us as He will be soon. I am not taking scripture out of context
where it says to seek the gifts, it says to seek the gifts, and is quite
plain about it.

Your interpretation of this text basically has to have meanings read
into the text that isn’t there. If for example that which is “perfect” is
the written Word so that we don’t need any more scripture, was it just
that first writing that was prefect, or every translation that followed too?
Was it when some body of believers got the idea of compiling certain
text together and not others? Was the perfect here before those text
were compiled into one book we call the Bible? That was quite a bit of
time from the time of the original writings to when they were compiled
into a single book, was the Holy Spirit manifest during that time when
all of those scriptures were not together, and most of mankind didn’t
have access to them all or even some of them? What you are
suggesting seems kind of cruel to me if only a handful of written
copies were floating around the whole planet, before we could mass
produce scripture to have God remove the manifestation of the Spirit
of God from us.

As I said in my previous post, all knowledge I have regarding the Truth came from the Bible, not from intuition. The Spirit guided the apostles and early disciples, and they wrote the Scriptures, the Whole Truth.

Galatians 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

This is twice now that you used this verse in our discussion, are you
suggesting that when I or another goes to God in prayer and asks
Him for Holy Spirit as Jesus talked about in Luke 11 we get a devil
instead that teaches something contrary to scripture? It seems like
that is what you are implying it to me, but I don’t want to put those
words into your mouth, why do you keep bringing this up? I wouldn’t
want you to be calling the Work of the Holy Spirit today to be satanic
in nature if that is not what you are trying to say.

Writing a (in a sense) "inspired" letter that can influence the life of others is not one of the supernatural Spiritual gifts we've been talking about, so I don't see the point.

Can you nowadays go to a committee and request one of your letters to be added to the Bible? Can anyone do that? If yes, what committee?

You see I don’t quite grasp your point if you believe this, if God is still
inspiring people, what you have been suggesting occurred hasn’t,
because God is still working with us as we write, as go about our daily
lives. If that is true, why again would those gifts cease, since
obviously more has to be said and done, the work has not stopped,
men are still in darkness, they still see in part, they are not fully
known.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]1 Corinthians 13: 8-13
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a chi opped,
men are still in darkness, they still see in part, they are not fully
known.
Kelly

[/b]I'm almost out of games now, so this will be the last thread I stay
in until my games are up.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm almost out of games now, so this will be the last thread I stay
in until my games are up.
Kelly[/b]

Well, Kelly—I stayed away for a few months (not as long as I planned, and probably not as long as I should have...).

Just in case I don’t catch you before you slip out,

Be well, my friend; be very, very well.

Originally posted by vistesd
Well, Kelly—I stayed away for a few months (not as long as I planned, and probably not as long as I should have...).

Just in case I don’t catch you before you slip out,

Be well, my friend; be very, very well.

I may have a week or two left no more. Thanks by the way.
Kelly

My view of salvation coincides with this:

Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. Ignorance -- whereby is meant ignorance of spiritual realities -- is dispelled only by Gnosis, and the decisive revelation of Gnosis is brought by the Messengers of Light, especially by Christ, the Logos of the True God. It is not by His suffering and death but by His life of teaching and His establishing of mysteries that Christ has performed His work of salvation

http://www.webcom.com/~gnosis/gnintro.htm

(I don't subscribe to everything on that site, though).

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
My view of salvation coincides with this:

Gnostics do not look to salvation from sin (original or other), but rather from the ignorance of which sin is a consequence. Ignorance -- whereby is meant ignorance of spiritual realities -- is dispelled only by Gnosis, and the decisive revelation of Gnosis is brought by the Messengers of Light, especially b ...[text shortened]... //www.webcom.com/~gnosis/gnintro.htm

(I don't subscribe to everything on that site, though).

I think there is more than one way to view what I saw, what I think
you are saying is that enlightenment, revelation, and knowledge
brings about salvation? That happens because people are as we have
been talking about in this thread looking through a glass darkly, not
knowing as they are known and so on. I disagree with this as far as
sin and original sin is concern, since I do believe that when God
created the universe it was call very good for a reason, there wasn't
any sin in it, that came when parts of the creation fell into sin and
evil.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]1 Corinthians 13: 8-13
Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a chi opped,
men are still in darkness, they still see in part, they are not fully
known.
Kelly

[/b]Hi Kelly,

I finally had the chance to answer one of your last posts.

I simply don’t see how you get your doctrine that God has removed
His gifts from the church from this scripture. This portion of scripture
does talk about the gifts no longer being needed, just as it speaks
about how now we see in a mirror dimly, and that there will be a time
when we will be face to face, now we know in part, and then we will be
fully known. This to me speaks more about the Kingdom of God
coming in fully into this universe where those gifts are no longer
required. We will for example no longer need to have healing when no
one is getting sick, we don’t need prophecy or tongues when God is
with us as He will be soon. I am not taking scripture out of context
where it says to seek the gifts, it says to seek the gifts, and is quite
plain about it.

Yes Kelly, the scripture is quite plain concerning the fact that the Corinthians should seek these gifts, the same way it is quite clear that they should pursue the lasting ones, since these supernatural ones would be over. I’ve read chapters 12, 13 and 14 in context and I got to the conclusion that there were some problems with the people that had these gifts; they were not acting as “one body”, so Paul talks about that problem in chapter 12, tells them to pursue the lasting ones in chapter 13 and tells them to seek the supernatural ones in chapter 14; they would be over in the future but they were not over yet.

Your interpretation of this text basically has to have meanings read
into the text that isn’t there. If for example that which is “perfect” is
the written Word so that we don’t need any more scripture, was it just
that first writing that was prefect, or every translation that followed too?

I consider it to have happened when the last of the inspired writers wrote something that came to be part of the Bible. Putting it another way, when the last inspired scripture was written.

Was it when some body of believers got the idea of compiling certain
text together and not others? Was the perfect here before those text
were compiled into one book we call the Bible?

Yes, it was there before the scriptures were compiled into what we know as the New Testament. Just because those scriptures were not part of the Bible, it doesn’t mean they didn’t belong there. As someone said, “Newton discovered the law of gravity, but nobody will say it didn’t exist before that.”

I think that saying “some body of believers got the idea of compiling certain text together and not others” is a sentence that would be used by skeptics, not by Christians that believe that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.

God is in charge here, not men.

That was quite a bit of time from the time of the original writings to when they were compiled into a single book, was the Holy Spirit manifest during that time when all of those scriptures were not together, and most of mankind didn’t have access to them all or even some of them?

Just because they were compiled later it doesn’t mean they were not in circulation among the brethren.

What you are suggesting seems kind of cruel to me if only a handful of written copies were floating around the whole planet, before we could mass produce scripture to have God remove the manifestation of the Spirit of God from us.

Kelly, you can talk of handful copies regarding the writings of Aristotle, Plato, Pliny, Caesar, Tacitus; however, regarding the documents that constitute the New Testament; there are thousands and thousands of these.

Concerning differences between manuscripts, that is another discussion.

This is twice now that you used this verse in our discussion, are you
suggesting that when I or another goes to God in prayer and asks
Him for Holy Spirit as Jesus talked about in Luke 11 we get a devil
instead that teaches something contrary to scripture?
It seems like that is what you are implying it to me, but I don’t want to put those words into your mouth, why do you keep bringing this up? I wouldn’t want you to be calling the Work of the Holy Spirit today to be satanic in nature if that is not what you are trying to say.

Paul doesn’t contradict Jesus and vice versa. One thing is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, another are supernatural spiritual gifts, which includes prophecy and revelation of new knowledge; these would cease, not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think I’ve brought that up many times, but if I did, that is because it all fits together.

Only after the laying of hands of the apostles, these gifts were bestowed; Paul said they would be over and urged Christians to pursue the lasting ones; the apostles died and nobody else could bestow them. All the disciples that had these gifts eventually died and no one else had these gifts, including the gift of revelation of new knowledge.

Therefore, Paul told the Galatians and Christians in general that if in the future (close or distant future) someone preached another gospel, that person would be accursed.

You see I don’t quite grasp your point if you believe this, if God is still inspiring people, what you have been suggesting occurred hasn’t,
because God is still working with us as we write, as go about our daily
lives. If that is true, why again would those gifts cease, since
obviously more has to be said and done, the work has not stopped,
men are still in darkness, they still see in part, they are not fully
known.

God inspires people in a way, but doesn't inspire people to write new revelation; that is the point regarding supernatural gifts.

Well, people have the Bible, the whole revelation, if they are still in darkness, that is another issue.

Mat 7:14 - Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

I still have another of your posts to answer.

Take care.

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]As FreakyKBH has said "The gibberish that they spew is little more than ecstatics unrelated to anything spiritual. While we do not need the confirmation of any field of science to determine the spiritual validity of any human experience, the study cited nonetheless simply confirms what the Bible has taught regarding tongues."

Remember, these tongues ...[text shortened]... sonal edification and for the edification of the Body of
Christ when taken in context.
Kelly

[/b]Hi Kelly,

Now I'll try to answer this post.

There are different gifts of tongues; there are times when tongues are used in the assembly when another can interpret what was said, and
other times when it is just between you and God. As far as it sounding
like just gibberish goes, there are a lot of languages throughout the
world where they sound like gibberish to those that do not know the
language so having someone say it is just gibberish doesn’t mean it
isn’t a language and has no meaning, only that it does not have a
meaning to them. What Paul was speaking about in Corinthians 14
let us look at the text in front of what you quoted too.

Corinthians 14: 1-9
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

The portion of scripture you used tells us to seek this out and talks
about for personal edification and for the edification of the Body of
Christ when taken in context.
Kelly

Regarding gibberish, I'm not talking of real languages that sound like gibberish, I'm talking about real gibberish, as confirmed by linguists.

Few studies have been elaborated regarding this subject.

Here is a link to one of them (a pilot study):

http://www.religioustolerance.org/tongues1.htm

One of the reasons this gift was given was so that the gospel could be spread among people that knew not Greek nor Hebrew.
The apostles and disciples imparted with this gift started immediately speaking a foreign language.

Doesn't it seem odd that nowadays the ones that claim to be imparted with this gift only speak gibberish? Why do people that believe the gift of tongues exist nowadays defend gibberish, but seldom defend the case that someone received the gift to speak a foreign language?

Why not a real language? Why not portuguese, or spanish, or italian, or russian, or chinese or any other?

Probably one knows about a friend of a friend of a friend of a friend that knows about someone being bestowed with the gift of a foreign language, but that is all.

Speaking in some gibberish, people can give the excuse they are speaking something that the angels or God understands.

To me the explanation is clear. This gift does not exist today and what happened with tongues happened with every other supernatural gift.

Regarding the passages in Galatians and in Luke 11, I would like to expand what I wrote in my previous post:

Gal 1:8 - But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

This was your comment:

This is twice now that you used this verse in our discussion, are you
suggesting that when I or another goes to God in prayer and asks
Him for Holy Spirit as Jesus talked about in Luke 11 we get a devil
instead that teaches something contrary to scripture? It seems like
that is what you are implying it to me, but I don’t want to put those
words into your mouth, why do you keep bringing this up? I wouldn’t
want you to be calling the Work of the Holy Spirit today to be satanic
in nature if that is not what you are trying to say.

I think in Luke 11:13 Jesus is talking about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Granted, this indwelling would allow (during that time) the disciple to receive supernatural gifts, but the indwelling is not the same as one of the supernatural gifts.

If you think these gifts mentioned in Luke 11 represent supernatural gifts, then I can argue that Paul in I Corinthians 14 did the same as Jesus; he told them to seek these gifts (soon after telling them they would be over).

Anyway, I think I need to invest some time studying Luke 11.

Regarding Galatians 1:8...

My opinion is that If someone claimed they had some new revelation that had not been given to the writers of the New Testament, then I think what Paul said in Galatians 1:8 would apply to him/her.

Take care.

Next I'll try to answer our friend vistesd.

Originally posted by xpoferens
Hi Kelly,

Now I'll try to answer this post.

There are different gifts of tongues; there are times when tongues are used in the assembly when another can interpret what was said, and
other times when it is just between you and God. As far as it sounding
like just gibberish goes, there are a lot of languages throughout the
world where they so ...[text shortened]... ns 1:8 would apply to him/her.

Take care.

Next I'll try to answer our friend vistesd.

Corinthians 14: 1-9
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church. Now I wish that you all spoke in tongues, but even more that you would prophesy; and greater is one who prophesies than one who speaks in tongues, unless he interprets, so that the church may receive edifying.

The portion of scripture you used tells us to seek this out and talks
about for personal edification and for the edification of the Body of
Christ when taken in context.
Kelly

Regarding gibberish, I'm not talking of real languages that sound like gibberish, I'm talking about real gibberish, as confirmed by linguists.

You think linguist could understand a Spiritual language? Isn't that
almost akin to taking the word of man over God's Words when it
comes to spiritual matters? Do you believe man's views over God's
Word when it comes to other spiritual realities scripture talks about?
I'm sort of at a loss as to why you take that position?

I will respond to the rest later, but I'm down to two games now and as
soon as they are over I'm gone for awhile.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
[b]Corinthians 14: 1-9
Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. One who speaks in a tongue edif but I'm down to two games now and as
soon as they are over I'm gone for awhile.
Kelly

[/b]Hi Kelly,

As far as it sounding like just gibberish goes, there are a lot of languages throughout the world where they sound like gibberish to those that do not know the language so having someone say it is just gibberish doesn’t mean it isn’t a language and has no meaning, only that it does not have a meaning to them.

Since in your post you had said what I've just cited above, my appeal to the linguists was more than justified, as it is easy to understand. I used linguists to contradict your claim.

Isn't that almost akin to taking the word of man over God's Words when it comes to spiritual matters?

Really Kelly, with all respect, your make these weird questions without any reason; do you want other people to think that is my point of view?

I've stated over and over again what the Bible says using relevant passages; only in two occasions I've used sources not directly related with the Bible. These studies give credit to what the Bible says and agree with what the Bible says about the temporary nature of these supernatural gifts.

Do you believe man's views over God's Word when it comes to other spiritual realities scripture talks about? I'm sort of at a loss as to why you take that position?

Another weird question. If you believe I believe that , then I think you've ignored the vast majority of my posts in which I cite Scripture, and you are using only two of my posts (in which I mentioned studies about the tongues movement) as being the main support to my claim. That is odd.

Again, I do not take that position, please don't put words in my mouth.

If they wish, people can read what both of us have written and can get to their own conclusions. Your sentence (I'm sort of at a loss as to why you take that position) it unjustified, moreover when my appeal to the linguists studies was caused by your sentence (cited above).

Regards

Originally posted by xpoferens
Hi Kelly,

As far as it sounding like just gibberish goes, there are a lot of languages throughout the world where they sound like gibberish to those that do not know the language so having someone say it is just gibberish doesn’t mean it isn’t a language and has no meaning, only that it does not have a meaning to them.

Since in your post y appeal to the linguists studies was caused by your sentence (cited above).

Regards[/b]

There isn’t any way a linguist could understand a spiritual pray
language or that of a message of the Spirit unless God gives them
the interpretation of the message, it is spiritual in nature not of this
world. What would a linguist be able to draw upon to understand it?
S/he could if the gift was where everyone heard the message in their
own tongue, but then so would everyone in the area that heard it.
That was why I said you are dismissing something spiritual and you
are simply using a man who doesn’t grasp what s/he heard word over
what the scripture says is a reality. Now saying that, not everyone who
does ‘speak in tongues’ is doing it because of God, it is no different
with the spiritual gifts today as it was in the Old Testament times
where there were prophets and false prophets running around at the
same time.

I’m not denying the temporary nature of those supernatural gifts; I
am however in disagreement with you over the timing where these
gifts are to be done away with. You have read into scripture meaning
that isn’t there plainly in the text, and because of that, your
interpretation of other scripture now has a meaning that must be
altered in your reading from what it plainly says to suit the meaning
you have inserted. The meaning you have inserted being what the
passage of scripture is talking about when it refers to “…when the
perfect comes...”, the alteration is where we are told to seek the gifts
of the Holy Spirit you would deny that as something God wants now.

I actually like you, have to pick and choose the timing of my
responses due to time constraints. I have no intention of leaving what
you have said in the rest of your posts unanswered. Apologies for
putting words into your mouth, I tried to phrase where I thought I
might be doing that in a question, or put a disclaimer acknowledging
when I thought I might be doing that. I acknowledge it is difficult to
do that sometimes where we could misunderstand what the other is
trying to say, so it is better to go slow and allow each of us to put our
own feet into our own mouths as it were. 😵
More to come.
Kelly

Originally posted by xpoferens
Hi Kelly,

I finally had the chance to answer one of your last posts.

I simply don’t see how you get your doctrine that God has removed
His gifts from the church from this scripture. This portion of scripture
does talk about the gifts no longer being needed, just as it speaks
about how now we see in a mirror dimly, and that there will be a t , and few there be that find it.

I still have another of your posts to answer.

Take care.

Paul doesn’t contradict Jesus and vice versa. One thing is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, another are supernatural spiritual gifts, which includes prophecy and revelation of new knowledge; these would cease, not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

I don’t think I’ve brought that up many times, but if I did, that is because it all fits together.

Only after the laying of hands of the apostles, these gifts were bestowed; Paul said they would be over and urged Christians to pursue the lasting ones; the apostles died and nobody else could bestow them. All the disciples that had these gifts eventually died and no one else had these gifts, including the gift of revelation of new knowledge.

Therefore, Paul told the Galatians and Christians in general that if in the future (close or distant future) someone preached another gospel, that person would be accursed.

I am asking to be sure, you are saying that in your opinion that
if someone other than an apostles prays for or with someone to
recieve the gifts of the Spirit that is another gospel? This is what
I keep thinking you are saying, but I want you to say it if you are
very clearly so I know I'm not putting words in your mouth you do
not intent to mean.
Kelly

Originally posted by xpoferens
Hi Kelly,

I finally had the chance to answer one of your last posts.

I simply don’t see how you get your doctrine that God has removed
His gifts from the church from this scripture. This portion of scripture
does talk about the gifts no longer being needed, just as it speaks
about how now we see in a mirror dimly, and that there will be a t , and few there be that find it.

I still have another of your posts to answer.

Take care.

Yes Kelly, the scripture is quite plain concerning the fact that the Corinthians should seek these gifts, the same way it is quite clear that they should pursue the lasting ones, since these supernatural ones would be over. I’ve read chapters 12, 13 and 14 in context and I got to the conclusion that there were some problems with the people that had these gifts; they were not acting as “one body”, so Paul talks about that problem in chapter 12, tells them to pursue the lasting ones in chapter 13 and tells them to seek the supernatural ones in chapter 14; they would be over in the future but they were not over yet.

Unless you are saying that none of the books of the Bible are written
for anyone other than those that they were addressed to, the book
of Corinthians and what was in it was also for us. The context of
scripture is fine as is, it changes only when you start adding meaning
that wasn't clearly written in it. So when I'm faces with scripture
that plainly says to seek the spiritual gifts, and you telling me not
to without the support of scripture that clearly says something has
changed, I’m going to go with scripture that says seek the gifts.

You have not shown me any scripture to support your belief that the
perfect was the last of the books of the Bible that were written, nor
have you shown me anything to suggest anyone was even to look for
such a time to come either in the past. While as I have pointed out
we have been told about a time when God will be walking with us
and we will not require the faith we have now, we are told about a
time coming that healing will not be necessary because all sickness
and death will be gone, we are told about a time where we will no
longer see through a glass darkly where enlightenment will not be
required, that to me is the 'perfect' not text that wasn't even put
together in a single book until quite a few years after they were
written.
Kelly