@josephw said@josephw said to @ sonship
I find no scriptural evidence to support the concept of "deification" of believers anywhere in the scriptures.
I keep telling everyone around here that the scriptures say what they mean and mean what they say.
Show me some references that SAY believers are deified. Otherwise it just sounds like a soup of conjectural assumptions to me.
Show me some references that SAY believers are deified.
Passive-aggressive much, josephw?
You ask this of sonship ... despite there being an 880-post thread on this very subject among today's current threads?
So, he has to type it all out again, just for you?
@pianoman1 saidWhat is the point of the creator God? I think it was asked what is our point? A point requires what a reason, a cause, God is causeless, are we?
May I politely bring the discussion back to my original OP. What is the point of God today? FMF has provided some interesting answers, but other posters have largely gone off on their own tangents.
@fmf saidDon't be obtuse. You know I'm not passive-aggressive.
@josephw said to @ sonship
Show me some references that SAY believers are deified.
Passive-aggressive much, josephw?
You ask this of sonship ... despite there being an 880-post thread on this very subject among today's current threads?
So, he has to type it all out again, just for you?
Sonship can post ten thousand times about "deification". I want to see unequivocal biblical evidence. So far I've seen none. Just sonship's assertions and inferences.
But I would like to see sonship post everything all over again just for you so I can watch your reactions. You're like the guy that doesn't believe God exists but can't stop talking about him. Comical.
@kellyjay saidTranslating this into English I am assuming kellyjay is questioning the old chestnut of the meaning of life. In my view there is no meaning, no reason for life; I think we are a random outcome of a series of physical and chemical processes which are undoubtedly being replicated many thousands of times across the cosmos, although that is mere hopeful speculation.
What is the point of the creator God? I think it was asked what is our point? A point requires what a reason, a cause, God is causeless, are we?
@kellyjay saidI don't accept your dogma, that the default position is flawed. Original sin is your myth, not mine.
I understood the meaning, which is why I rejected it. The default position is we are flawed creatures, we have a variety of views about everything, that doesn't mean what we believe at birth is true or not, our beliefs don't form reality, we are in reality, and we are grappling with what is or isn't true. Our moral notions are also fragmented; it doesn't mean what some (the ...[text shortened]... er how much time passes or where you are.
I believe God is the living truth; that doesn't change.
@pianoman1 saidWords have meaning; when we say them, they are for cause. God being uncreated doesn't require anything from us, while the reverse is not true since we have a beginning, a cause. Our thoughts about a causeless one aren't as nearly important as the causeless One's thoughts about us. The living Word created everything, so there is the meaning behind each thing created, information fills all that there is, there are many wonders around us, many mysteries.
Translating this into English I am assuming kellyjay is questioning the old chestnut of the meaning of life. In my view there is no meaning, no reason for life; I think we are a random outcome of a series of physical and chemical processes which are undoubtedly being replicated many thousands of times across the cosmos, although that is mere hopeful speculation.
@moonbus saidYou don't have to recognize original sin to see it all around you, including inside yourself. Looking at the origin of anything gives us insight into it and why it is. When we know we should be treated better than we were when we treat others less than they should be, we are aware. A mindless beginning doesn't have any justification for any of that.
I don't accept your dogma, that the default position is flawed. Original sin is your myth, not mine.
@pianoman1 saidFor some people, this is a truly liberating idea, for we are at liberty to give life a meaning and a purpose, rather than having a meaning dictated to us by a Big Tyrant (even a supposedly loving one, though Esau and Job's family certainly did not fair well at his hands). For other people, who are not able to give their own lives a meaning, I suppose this idea is nauseating. It would not only mean that their lives would be meaningless, but that their faith in a Transcendent Meaning is in vain.
In my view there is no meaning, no reason for life; I think we are a random outcome of a series of physical and chemical processes which are undoubtedly being replicated many thousands of times across the cosmos, although that is mere hopeful speculation.
@moonbus saidIn vain is an interesting term; faith in something untrue would be vain. So going back to the meta-narrative, how did all of this start? I'm aware of one view has a meaning: it was created for a reason.
For some people, this is a truly liberating idea, for we are at liberty to give life a meaning and a purpose, rather than having a meaning dictated to us by a Big Tyrant (even a supposedly loving one, though Esau and Job's family certainly did not fair well at his hands). For other people, who are not able to give their own lives a meaning, I suppose this idea is nauseating. ...[text shortened]... an that their lives would be meaningless, but that their faith in a Transcendent Meaning is in vain.
Can you tell me where other views carry any meaning or hope whatsoever? Everything being created for a reason also has hope for the future. Can you share how hope for the future is in any other views with different beginnings? At best, everything in the here and now all meaning can only be found in the here and now, all justice, and everything else. What hope for the future is in any of that if it is all limited to just here and now? Those who commit horrible crimes to others get away with it, provided they never get caught by us; it is all open season. But if there is more?
@kellyjay saidMore dogma. There is nothing special about origins (if there were any).
You don't have to recognize original sin to see it all around you, including inside yourself. Looking at the origin of anything gives us insight into it and why it is. When we know we should be treated better than we were when we treat others less than they should be, we are aware. A mindless beginning doesn't have any justification for any of that.
If you see sin all around you, it's because you're looking for it. You know the saying: if you meet an a**hole in the morning, you met an a**hole. If you meet a**holes all day, you're the a**hole.
Regardless, what our origins may have been, even if you grew up in a war zone or a slum or suffered abuse, we're here now and we can treat people now as they deserve to be treated, with dignity and respect. I don't see how you can treat other people with dignity and respect if you think you and everyone else are evil excrement. Except with pity, maybe. Not my attitude. I prefer to treat people with respect rather than pity, on the assumption that they are basically compassionate and cooperative (if given a chance to show it, and if their minds are not poisoned by a toxic ideology), not basically evil.
One day try this experiment: every person who comes your way, smile at -- see how many smile back. Not everyone, probably, but it certainly increases the likelihood if you smile first.
Next day, try the opposite: every person who comes your way, remind him he's a sinner, basically evil excrement. What sort response are you likely to get? If you assume people are pitiable evil excrement, they won't disappoint you. But if you smile at them, you will see that most people are basically good and compassionate (or at least neutral).
Take home lesson: it's not what it is. It becomes what you make it.
@moonbus saidDo you think any dogma is religion-centered only? We all have views, and if those views are correct or error is what matters. Having a faith that nothing can be known is dogma (not saying you are like this), and as soon as someone says this is known, it automatically questions simply because it goes against what they believe; it doesn't even have to be thought out, just rejected out of hand.
More dogma. There is nothing special about origins (if there were any).
If you see sin all around you, it's because you're looking for it. You know the saying: if you meet an a**hole in the morning, you met an a**hole. If you meet a**holes all day, you're the a**hole.
Regardless, what our origins may have been, even if you grew up in a war zone or a slum or suffered ab ...[text shortened]... (or at least neutral).
Take home lesson: it's not what it is. It becomes what you make it.
I think we are singular creatures made in the image of God, therefore, having eternal worth regardless of our life's circumstances. It goes back to how it all started, you can say more dogma, but the real question is the truth, not dogma.