@kellyjay saidIt does not matter how 'it' started, whatever you think 'it' is. We're here now.
In vain is an interesting term; faith in something untrue would be vain. So going back to the meta-narrative, how did all of this start? I'm aware of one view has a meaning: it was created for a reason.
Can you tell me where other views carry any meaning or hope whatsoever? Everything being created for a reason also has hope for the future. Can you share how hope for the ...[text shortened]... get away with it, provided they never get caught by us; it is all open season. But if there is more?
The initial note of a symphony does not contain it's purpose or meaning. The final note of symphony is not it's goal. The purpose, meaning, and 'goal' of a symphony is the playing of it, and playing it well. When the final note fades away, even if that symphony is never played again, nothing erases that it was played once.
The initial movement of a dance does not contain it's purpose or meaning. The final movement of a dance is not it's goal. The purpose, meaning, and 'goal' of a dance is the mastery of motion. When the final step fades away, even if that dance is never performed again, nothing erases that it was danced once.
Life is a dance. There are moments of awkward stumbling and falling down and getting bruised; and there are moments of seemingly effortless grace. Hope is for people who can't find any meaning in doing, who can't just dance; hope is for people who want to be rewarded in the future for having danced.
The journey is not the goal. There is no goal. There is only mastering the motion and enjoying the scenery.
@moonbus saidYou will find nowhere that Jesus spoke in such negative terms about people. His words were encouraging and uplifting. Its funny how Christian churches have moved away from that and promote a doctrine exalting evil and boasting that they are filthy sinners.
More dogma. There is nothing special about origins (if there were any).
If you see sin all around you, it's because you're looking for it. You know the saying: if you meet an a**hole in the morning, you met an a**hole. If you meet a**holes all day, you're the a**hole.
Regardless, what our origins may have been, even if you grew up in a war zone or a slum or suffered ab ...[text shortened]... (or at least neutral).
Take home lesson: it's not what it is. It becomes what you make it.
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@rajk999 saidI leave it to you, Josephw, KellyJay, and Sonship to debate what Jesus taught vs. the extent to which the Christian churches have preached or practised what Jesus taught. Not my battle.
You will find nowhere that Jesus spoke in such negative terms about people. His words were encouraging and uplifting. Its funny how Christian churches have moved away from that and promote a doctrine exalting evil and boasting that they are filthy sinners.
The world view I sketched out is broadly speaking Zen, and Zen teaches first, that we are the authors of our own suffering, and second, compassion -- compassion for ourselves and for our fellow men. I think the latter is not fundamentally different to what Jesus taught, though Jesus probably implicitly accepted the Jewish notion of original sin.
Nonetheless, some Christians here cannot get their minds round the idea that Zen is a viable world view, because it does not address the typical Judeo-Christian (theological) issues of the origins of sin, hope for reward and fear of punishment in a future life. I just put it out there in response to KJ, who wanted to know if I had anything to offer without a belief in God. It isn't any skin off my nose if Christians don't see this as an alternative world view to their own. I certainly do not expect any devout Christian to abandon his faith and embrace Buddhism.
@moonbus saidNonsense, how we got here defines everything that is here. Simply saying it doesn't matter; it removes all meaning no matter how we started. Suppose we are the end products of pond scum or something that squirmed out from under a rock that would be entirely different from someone made by a creator for a purpose, His purpose.
It does not matter how 'it' started, whatever you think 'it' is. We're here now.
The initial note of a symphony does not contain it's purpose or meaning. The final note of symphony is not it's goal. The purpose, meaning, and 'goal' of a symphony is the playing of it, and playing it well. When the final note fades away, even if that symphony is never played again, nothing e ...[text shortened]... rney is not the goal. There is no goal. There is only mastering the motion and enjoying the scenery.
@moonbus saidVery Zen, and very true.
It does not matter how 'it' started, whatever you think 'it' is. We're here now.
The initial note of a symphony does not contain it's purpose or meaning. The final note of symphony is not it's goal. The purpose, meaning, and 'goal' of a symphony is the playing of it, and playing it well. When the final note fades away, even if that symphony is never played again, nothing e ...[text shortened]... rney is not the goal. There is no goal. There is only mastering the motion and enjoying the scenery.
😊
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@josephw saidSeen it, read the abstract, did some research into Panin, and replied on page 8.
Oh, btw, did you miss my post at the bottom of page 4 in the thread "Is the Tree of Life a Real Tree?
Just curious about what you might think of the link I left there.
@pianoman1 saidI hardly expect literalist Christians to understand it, but I thought it needed saying, just to give some counter-balance to their contention that without God, life is meaningless.
Very Zen, and very true.
😊
@kellyjay saidYour dogma, not mine.
Nonsense, how we got here defines everything that is here. Simply saying it doesn't matter; it removes all meaning no matter how we started. Suppose we are the end products of pond scum or something that squirmed out from under a rock that would be entirely different from someone made by a creator for a purpose, His purpose.
@moonbus saidSounds like both doctrines are along similar lines, and I cannot remember seeing any of the teachings of Jesus Christ which mentioned original sin.
I think the latter is not fundamentally different to what Jesus taught, though Jesus probably implicitly accepted the Jewish notion of original sin.
