What is Truth?

Originally posted by galveston75
You are right and yes one big issue is the disagreements on what he said. We all see that here daily at RHP.
But shouldn't the truth on a subject be nothing more then the truth? If Jesus said the sky was blue, we'd all agree, I hope.
But yet on so many things Jesus said, many can not agree on it. Why? What makes one clearly understand something he s ...[text shortened]... gee with everyone they speak to and exclaim that they are right until they are blue in the face?

John 8
43“Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. 44“You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Originally posted by galveston75
You are right and yes one big issue is the disagreements on what he said. We all see that here daily at RHP.
But shouldn't the truth on a subject be nothing more then the truth? If Jesus said the sky was blue, we'd all agree, I hope.
But yet on so many things Jesus said, many can not agree on it. Why? What makes one clearly understand something he s ...[text shortened]... gee with everyone they speak to and exclaim that they are right until they are blue in the face?

Reminds me of the arguments of the creationists.

You can say 'words are just words' and 'if he says it's blue it's blue'. But context is important, as is the times those words are written in.

For example, blue cheese. The blue part of blue cheese is not really blue, nor is it cheese. It's various bacteria and molds, mainly Penicillium. And yet, if you wanted people to understand you, you'd simply say "blue cheese".

Plus, as I've always said, "You gotta know your audience." The writers of the Bible were writing for those of the first century. There was no knowledge of science like there is today. This is another reason why the issue of slavery is merely given "lip service" in the Bible. It was common then. It didn't become a "social issue" until the mid 19th century.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Aren't you normally found walking the other side of the tracks?

I'm looking at you as I'd look at any of them coming over here and putting forth scripture, especially in a thread having to do with truth. Not fantasy, but truth. And poignant scripture, at that.

How long have you been reading this forum? I've long maintained that, by and large, I find the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth to be quite deep and profound. From what I can tell, the vast majority of Christians hold the teachings of Paul and his followers at their core rather than the teachings of Jesus. As such, they read much of what Jesus taught through the lens of the teachings of Paul. Therefore they "cannot hear His word".

Take John 8:31-36 for example. There Jesus states that His true disciples will be made free from committing sin. However it seems that the vast majority of Christian believe it impossible for any human being to stop committing sin. In short, they do not believe Jesus.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
How long have you been reading this forum? I've long maintained that, by and large, I find the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth to be quite deep and profound. From what I can tell, the vast majority of Christians hold the teachings of Paul and his followers at their core rather than the teachings of Jesus. As such, they read much of what Jesus ...[text shortened]... e it impossible for any human being to stop committing sin. In short, they do not believe Jesus.

If we forget Paul for a minute and just look at this assertion in the light of the gospels alone you will see that it is incorrect.

Originally posted by galveston75
John 18:37
Good News Translation (GNT)
37 So Pilate asked him, “Are you a king, then?”

Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. I was born and came into the world for this one purpose, to speak about the truth. Whoever belongs to the truth listens to me.”


Truth was the one purpose that he came to earth. What is this truth Jesus was speaking of?

Is this a philosophical question you are asking, or a leading one?

For me personally it is summed up in Jesus words "I am the way the truth and the life". For some this is at best a spurious claim, but to Christians or seekers of the truth it is pivotal.

Of course perspective depends on wether you are seeking truth or dishing your version of it.

Originally posted by galveston75
John 18:37
Good News Translation (GNT)
37 So Pilate asked him, “Are you a king, then?”

Jesus answered, “You say that I am a king. I was born and came into the world for this one purpose, to speak about the truth. Whoever belongs to the truth listens to me.”


Truth was the one purpose that he came to earth. What is this truth Jesus was speaking of?

The truth is the Greatest Commandment, to Love God with All Your Heart

Originally posted by divegeester
If we forget Paul for a minute and just look at this assertion in the light of the gospels alone you will see that it is incorrect.

The only proper way to look at the assertion is in the light of the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth. While Jesus walked the Earth, He repeatedly emphasized the importance of following HIS words - of following HIS commandments. He did not say to follow the words of Paul or anyone else.

Do you believe that the assertion is incorrect in the light of the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth? If so, how?

So if following his words and even his daily life and how he treated others as well as his ministry work, how does this affect our lifes today if one is truely living the truths that he did?
Can we pick and choose those truths as ones we may agree with and ignor others that we don't? What are we willing to sacrifice for those truths?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

The only proper way to look at the assertion is in the light of the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth. While Jesus walked the Earth, He repeatedly emphasized the importance of following HIS words - of following HIS commandments. He did not say to follow the words of Paul or anyone else.

The Apostle Peter recommended the teachings of the younger man Paul and identified his letters as Scripture -

" ... our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, wrote to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them concerning these things, in which some things are hard to understand, which the unlearned and unstable twist, as also the rest of the Scripture, to their own destruction." (2 Pet. 3:15,16)

You are attacking the genuine apostleship of Paul which Peter, one of the original twelve apostles, highly recommended.

Jesus words in His prayer covered His 12 disciples AND those who believed in Him through their word in John 17 -

" And I do not ask concerning these only, but concerning those also who believe into Me through their word ... " (John 17:17 )

Do you believe that the assertion is incorrect in the light of the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth? If so, how?[/b]

I will have to examine exactly what you are speaking about here.
However I detect that this compliant is back to the attitude "Jesus we like, of course. But Paul messed it all up."

This is your unbelieving view of the ministry of Jesus. It is inadequate.

After His earthly ministry Jesus continued His heavenly ministry. YOU assume that Jesus stopped His ministering after His death. No, not after His death and not after His resurrection from the dead. And neither after His ascension to the right hand of God.

Christ specifically called Paul to be an apostle. And it is no accident that God ordained Paul to write some 13 books of the New Testament's 27.

The battles over the genuineness of Paul's apostleship were fought between he and the churches in Galatia and the church in Corinth by suspicious detractors. Their problem was not with Paul but with Jesus operating IN Paul.

Jesus Christ continued His High Priestly ministry through His apostles and prophets. Paul "complet[ed] the word of God" (Col.1:25).

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne

I find the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth to be quite deep and profound. From what I can tell, the vast majority of Christians hold the teachings of Paul and his followers at their core rather than the teachings of Jesus. As such, they read much of what Jesus taught through the lens of the teachings of Paul. Therefore they "cannot hear His word".

Take John 8:31-36 for example. There Jesus states that His true disciples will be made free from committing sin. However it seems that the vast majority of Christian believe it impossible for any human being to stop committing sin. In short, they do not believe Jesus.

You must have missed His words about judge not that you be not judged. For with the judgment you judge you SHALL be judged.

I have been set free from many sins of the past. I know thousands who could say the same.

I did not say that the process of sanctification is completed in me. He is still working.

But you seem to feel qualified to sit up on some judgmental bema seat and pass generalized judgments on all the Christians. This is not my experience of fellowshipping with brothers and sisters, that none of them have found freedom from sinning in Christ.

Growth in Christ is a life long process. I have known some very mature believers. None of them would dare claim that they have arrived with no further need to sink deeper in the Christ.

I wish you would lay off Paul. Paul was one of a number of splendid pioneers in the experience of Jesus Christ. He pioneered into maturity and explained to the rest of us how WE TOO can follow on to grow in Christ.

And this attitude "Jesus we like. But Paul messed everything up" is phony sounding. The real complaint is against Jesus. And there is practically nothing Paul taught that I could not find a parallel for in the words of Christ or the other apostles, on any major aspect of our faith.

The Apostle Paul, author of about 13 of the 27 New Testament books, was exceedingly faithful in pioneering into the experience of complete consecration in Christ.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Reminds me of the arguments of the creationists.

You can say 'words are just words' and 'if he says it's blue it's blue'. But context is important, as is the times those words are written in.

For example, blue cheese. The blue part of blue cheese is not really blue, nor is it cheese. It's various bacteria and molds, mainly Penicillium. And ...[text shortened]... n the Bible. It was common then. It didn't become a "social issue" until the mid 19th century.

Well yes the writers were from a different era of course. But God is not from any era and the Bible makes it very clear that all the Bible is inspired by him.
There is nothing in the Bible that is out of date and when something like slavery was approved by God then, it had it's purpose and this slavery was not like the type most humans who have been slaves or what we've seen in the last few hundred years. God would never approve of that type where so much cruelity was inflicted on those poor humans.
The only slavery God approved was when one was in debt to another. Once that debt was worked off, that person was free to go.
As far a science being more understanding to humans now is great, but God has known all these things and much more that we may never know, all along. He created it all and knows it all.
So the subject at hand which is "truth" and all that emplys has not changed. The truth of spiritual matters that we all need to learn and understand is still the same. Truths never change...

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
The only proper way to look at the assertion is in the light of the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth. While Jesus walked the Earth, He repeatedly emphasized the importance of following HIS words - of following HIS commandments. He did not say to follow the words of Paul or anyone else.

Do you believe that the assertion is incorrect in the light of the teachings of Jesus while He walked the Earth? If so, how?

I'm not holding an aggressive position on this just to be clear. However the assertion that Jesus was saying that once (whatever means) following him one cannot sin is demonstrably an incorrect position as Peter sinned in betraying him and did it through lying. This is a simple piece of absolute evidence that refutes the assertion.

Originally posted by galveston75
So if following his words and even his daily life and how he treated others as well as his ministry work, how does this affect our lifes today if one is truely living the truths that he did?
Can we pick and choose those truths as ones we may agree with and ignor others that we don't? What are we willing to sacrifice for those truths?

No we cannot choose, but we are instructed to seek god in spirit and in truth.

I think I see where you are going with this now.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well yes the writers were from a different era of course. But God is not from any era and the Bible makes it very clear that all the Bible is inspired by him.
There is nothing in the Bible that is out of date and when something like slavery was approved by God then, it had it's purpose and this slavery was not like the type most humans who have been sl ...[text shortened]... itual matters that we all need to learn and understand is still the same. Truths never change...

I'm not going to get into an argument with you Galvo, but you are skating on very thin ice with this line of reasoning that god is from another era and therefore all that god does in any ere is valid in any era.

Originally posted by galveston75
Well yes the writers were from a different era of course. But God is not from any era and the Bible makes it very clear that all the Bible is inspired by him.
There is nothing in the Bible that is out of date and when something like slavery was approved by God then, it had it's purpose and this slavery was not like the type most humans who have been sl ...[text shortened]... itual matters that we all need to learn and understand is still the same. Truths never change...

Has this thread gotten around to stating the truth that is asked about in the OP? I suspect that for the faithful, the question is, and should be, a lifetime concern.