@rajk999 saidRead it again, genius. The sin I claimed they made was changing the words of the Bible, to match their already created dogma.
Here is a great illustration of how churches have removed the brains of their sycophant congregation.
Jesus says clearly that God is greater that He is.
Paul said the head of Christ is God.
Yet these fools continue to mindlessly regurgitate the doctrine of the church, and now claiming that saying Jesus is less than God is a sin.
@galveston75 said<<Well the word first born means exactly what it means for anything that is the first born of a human or animal etc. I wouldn't say it's a fair thing to do to change the meaning of that word. If the issue with Jesus were a different meaning then a first born that humans understand I'm sure the writers of the Bible would make it clearer with a different word or an explanation.>>
Well the word first born means exactly what it means for anything that is the first born of a human or animal etc. I wouldn't say it's a fair thing to do to change the meaning of that word. If the issue with Jesus were a different meaning then a first born that humans understand I'm sure the writers of the Bible would make it clearer with a different word or an explanatio ...[text shortened]... ther two thrones if they are the same and all equal? Where is it? And what is the holy spirits name?
The original was written, if I’m not mistaken, in Greek. Firstborn was not the word used by the Apostle Paul; it’s a translation from the Greek, and not all translations are perfect (or even good.)
And the Trinity always existed and is evident in the Old Testament as is Jesus Christ - most directly (I think) in Daniel.
“And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
(Daniel 3:23-25)
And the Jews rejected Jesus Christ and had Him put to death for blasphemy because He identified as God - albeit ambiguously, but the Jews knew what He was saying, which is why they killed Him.
And I don’t think God is concerned about who has a throne and where someone is sitting.
Jesus Christ Himself came to serve and not be served said the greatest will be a servant.
“But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.”
(Matthew 23:11-12)
@suzianne saidExcellent post, suzianne
I told you this a thousand times and I told robbie this at least a million times.
"Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
...[text shortened]... od.
How much time will go by now, before I have to bring this up to you, yet again?
@rajk999 said<<Plus God said to his Son , .. this day have I begotton thee ... Clearly there was a point when Jesus did not exist and God was alone.>>
I checked it out, and I have a method of quickly deciding whether that article is a genuinely unbiased article or is it biased and just trying desperately to twist the bible to prove a point. The first test is to see if they took the words of the bible, and changed the meaning or wording, and they did just that.
In my previous post I quoted where Paul said in Hebrews tha ...[text shortened]... s did not exist and God was alone.
WRONG !!! Get away from me you false teachers SLAM !!!!
-
You don’t think that refers to the day of Jesus Christ’s Resurrection?
Why not?
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@galveston75 said"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Thanks for your input.
Let me simplify this if I can.
Jesus was the 1st of all that was created. But make this clear that Jesus was not the first in existence because that was his Father Jehovah who was not a creation. He has always existed.
After Jesus was created the angels were then created and all of them had a lower standing before Jehovah. Only Jesus, t ...[text shortened]... y of teaching us humans about him, his son, his Kingdom and with his dealings with us in the future.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." -- John 1:1-5, KJV
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God...". Jesus was NOT "created".
"And the darkness comprehended it not." Self-explanatory.
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@pb1022 saidActually, I have to disprove nothing. The onus is on you to prove that that passage is referring to the day of the resurrection.
<<Plus God said to his Son , .. this day have I begotton thee ... Clearly there was a point when Jesus did not exist and God was alone.>>
You don’t think that refers to the day of Jesus Christ’s Resurrection?
Why not?
The body of Jesus died on the day of the crucification and was placed in the sepulcher. The soul of Christ went elsewhere as the bible stated. So God was not without Christ when he died.
The only time The Father was without the Son was prior to his creation.
@rajk999 said<<The only time The Father was without the Son was prior to his creation.>>
Actually, I have to disprove nothing. The onus is on you to prove that that passage is referring to the day of the resurrection.
The body of Jesus died on the day of the crucification and was placed in the sepulcher. The soul of Christ went elsewhere as the bible stated. So God was not without Christ when he died.
The only time The Father was without the Son was prior to his creation.
I don’t think that’s correct.
“Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
(Matthew 27:45-46)
“My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
O my God, I cry in the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.”
(Psalm 22:1-2)
@galveston75 saidYou my friend.
@medullah Who???
The only issue (and it's preference not point of correctness) is that personally I prefer "Jehovah" as opposed to "Jehovah God", as in my mind there is only one Jehovah; "Glorious Jehovah". But I take no issue with you.
Thank you for making your point.
@pb1022 saidOk cool .. once you are happy with your interpretation thats fine. Im good with mine. We good. For me it is not a big issue either way.
<<The only time The Father was without the Son was prior to his creation.>>
I don’t think that’s correct.
“Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour.
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”
(Matthew 27:45-46)
“My ...[text shortened]... n the day time, but thou hearest not; and in the night season, and am not silent.”
(Psalm 22:1-2)
@suzianne saidI must disagree on this one, although often I do appreciate your posts.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
The same was in the beginning with God.
All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not." -- John 1:1-5, KJV
"In the beginning w ...[text shortened]... ith God...". Jesus was NOT "created".
"And the darkness comprehended it not." Self-explanatory.
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God (Ho Theos) and the word was (incorrectly translated) God (logos).
In the latter part of that line a truer translation would be
"In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was (take your pick) "a god/devine/god like".
Whatever you choose the "word" as logos was very definitely not Ho Theos or God as in Almighty.
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The original was written, if I’m not mistaken, in Greek. Firstborn was not the word used by the Apostle Paul; it’s a translation from the Greek, and not all translations are perfect (or even good.)
And Christ was and is the Firstborn of all creation.
Christ was and is the Firstborn Son of God - "the Firstborn from the dead".
Christians should never let any intimidation influence us to back away from these
pronouncements of the word of God.
What is needed is to understand them properly.
Colossians 1:15 - "Who is the image of the invisible God, the Firstborn of all creation."
Colossians 1:18 - "And He is the Head of the Body, the church; He is the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead, that He Himself night have first place in all things."
If we Christians back away from either of these "Firstborn" utterances because we are nervous because of Arians or those wanting to rob Christ of His Deity, it is a mistake.
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Christian brothers & sisters I urge you not to drop the New Testament revelation of Christ as "the Firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15) or Christ as "the Head of the Body the church . . . the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead." (Col. 1:18)
Don't do it. You'll be sorry.
In the old creation - Christ has preeminence.
In the new creation - Christ has preeminence.
In both creations - the old and the new - "that He might have the first place in all things." (v. 18)
If we weaken that Christ is the Firstborn of all creation we undermine His incarnation. MAN . . . is an item of God's creation. Christ became a man. God clothed Himself in His creation - man / flesh / blood / all that pertains to man. And God CREATED Man - (Genesis 1:26,27)
The MOST important item of all creation is Christ - God Himself who clothed Himself with humanity which He had created.
That is the OLD creation. The NEW creation is that which stems from resurrection. In that new creation also Christ is "the Firstborn from the dead" In the new creation of God united with man in incarnation plus resurrection Christ is "the beginning of the creation of God" (Rev. 3:14)
"And to the messenger of the church in Laodicea write: These things says the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the beginning of the [NEW] creation of God." (Rev. 3:14)
@sonship
I agree, and you quote the scripture that (Col 1:15) pretty much nails it and proves Jesus previous pre-human existence.
So often misrepresented John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, “Have I been so long a time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, ‘Show us the Father’?
Jesus isn't saying that he is God. We have already established that he is the image of the invisible God, which is why if you have seen the son you have seen The Father because he is a reflection of Jehovah.
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I agree, and you quote the scripture that (Col 1:15) pretty much nails it and proves Jesus previous pre-human existence.
I uphold that Christ is God eternal without beginning. (John 1:1)
Christ as preexistent before the universe, before the world, before the angels, before man, - is the uncreated eternal God from eternity.
Are we on the same page? In incarnation He clothed Himself in that which God CREATED. Jesus was a MAN. MAN is of the creation of God. Jesus is God-man.
So often misrepresented John 14:9
Jesus said unto him, “Have I been so long a time with you, and yet hast thou not known Me, Philip? He that hath seen Me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, ‘Show us the Father’?
Jesus isn't saying that he is God. We have already established that he is the image of the invisible God, which is why if you have seen the son you have seen The Father because he is a reflection of Jehovah.
The Messiah, the Son of God came forth from the days of ETERNITY (Micah 5:2).
He came forth from ETERNITY - "and the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us." (John 1:14)
He who was God from eternity was incarnated - He became a man.
He is God and man. He had to be man in order to be able to DIE.
He had to be God in order to make the significance and effectiveness of His death have eternal power and eternal efficacy.
My God is the man Jesus Christ.