@galveston75 saidI have issues with how your text is displayed; please reference what translation you are using. The word "a" at the end of 15 your version has made Jesus be just one of some instead of the one by whom everything was made by Him and for Him, and it is by Jesus they all consist as well.
@PB1022
I'm at work so will answer what I can.....
Jesus was created.....
Colossians 1:15, 16
15 He ( Jesus) is the image of the invisible God,a (the firstborn of all creation) 16 because by means of him all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, whether they are thrones or lordships or gov ...[text shortened]... is a part of God just as the trinity speaks of, is this part another equal part of the trinity God?
KJV
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
@kellyjay saidThe version galveston is using also inserts “other” two times in verse 16.
I have issues with how your text is displayed; please reference what translation you are using. The word "a" at the end of 15 your version has made Jesus be just one of some instead of the one by whom everything was made by Him and for Him, and it is by Jesus they all consist as well.
KJV
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16 ...[text shortened]... were created by him, and for him:
17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
BTW, galveston, I meant no disrespect when I lol’d at suzianne’s comment. It was just a funny comment, irrespective of who it was said to.
"The Shack"
A friend of mine wanted me to watch this movie, so I did. There was an important scene in which the man was going to shoot himself in the shack. But....a deer showed up at the door, which made the man reconsider his intentions. (I'm going by memory)
Anyway, when I was finished watching the movie, my friend asked me this question: "do you think that the deer could have been God"?
I immediately said yes. (I had no problem believing that God could do whatever He wants).
Funny thing.......I seem to want to fight the notion that Jesus is God, yet....I didn't give it a second thought when it came to the deer in the movie scene.
Just sharing an observation. Not sure why exactly I fight with the Trinity. God can do whatever He chooses to do.
@PB1022
And the Trinity always existed and is evident in the Old Testament as is Jesus Christ - most directly (I think) in Daniel.
“And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.”
Sorry but I don't see how this helps with the trinity. These scriptures are speaking of this event where these 3 were obviously gong to die but they were saved by an angel that god sent to do this. All the angels are called "Sons of God".
This is not saying which angel it was.
@PB1022
Even having a Jehovah's Wirtness New World Translation "Bible" in my house would give me the willies. It would be the same as bringing in a statue of Mary and a baby all colored up and realistic looking. Ugh !!.
The feeling of something spiritually filthy, swarmed about with unclean demon spirits, to me is the same if either a NWT "Bible" or a statue of Jesus or Mary were in my home.
I have had the 1901 American Standard Version published by Watchtower Society in my library. I suspect that they HAD to stop using that in their teaching because its a good translation and plainly contradicts their favorite dogma - that Jesus is not Jehovah incarnate.
@sonship saidWell now. Just exactly how do you feel?
@PB1022
Even having a Jehovah's Wirtness New World Translation "Bible" in my house would give me the willies. It would be the same as bringing in a statue of Mary and a baby all colored up and realistic looking. Ugh !!.
The feeling of something spiritually filthy, swarmed about with unclean demon spirits, to me is the same if either a NWT "Bible" or a statue of Jes ...[text shortened]... ood translation and plainly contradicts their favorite dogma - that Jesus is not Jehovah incarnate.
I would never say something like that to you about your bible or beliefs and never say that to anyone no matter their faith. Oh well....
Does your Bible have God's name Jehovah in it?
@galveston75 saidJesus is the Word of God made flesh; nothing was made without Him, all things were made through Him. You cannot have someone who created everything, and without Him, nothing was created, be a created being. In the Old Testament, during creation, God created, the Spirit of the Lord hovered over the waters, and God said in the beginning.
@PB1022
And the Trinity always existed and is evident in the Old Testament as is Jesus Christ - most directly (I think) in Daniel.
“And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not ...[text shortened]... nt to do this. All the angels are called "Sons of God".
This is not saying which angel it was.
Colossians 1 KJV
16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
John KJV
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Genesis KJB
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
@sonship said<<Christian brothers & sisters I urge you not to drop the New Testament revelation of Christ as "the Firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15) or Christ as "the Head of the Body the church . . . the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead." (Col. 1:18)
Christian brothers & sisters I urge you not to drop the New Testament revelation of Christ as "the Firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15) or Christ as "the Head of the Body the church . . . the beginning, the Firstborn from the dead." (Col. 1:18)
Don't do it. You'll be sorry.
In the old creation - Christ has preeminence.
In the new creation - Christ ...[text shortened]... ful and true Witness, the beginning of the [/b] [NEW] creation of God." (Rev. 3:14)
Don't do it. You'll be sorry.
In the old creation - Christ has preeminence.
In the new creation - Christ has preeminence. >>
I hear you, sonship, and I agree with you.
My only point was that the Apostle Paul didn’t write his letter to the Colossians in English and sometimes the Holy Bible has unfortunate translations.
The King James Version, for example, translates Isaiah 45:7 as:
“I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.”
while other translations use words like “calamity” and “disaster” instead of “evil.”
Given the time period when Paul wrote Colossians, I’m sure firstborn was understood quite well by his audience given the culture and customs back then. It just has an unfortunate double meaning.
@galveston75 saidSurely you’re not expecting the name “Jesus Christ” to appear in the Old Testament. The Son of God received the name “Jesus” upon His birth to the Virgin Mary.
@PB1022
And the Trinity always existed and is evident in the Old Testament as is Jesus Christ - most directly (I think) in Daniel.
“And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not ...[text shortened]... nt to do this. All the angels are called "Sons of God".
This is not saying which angel it was.
I would never say something like that to you about your bible or beliefs and never say that to anyone no matter their faith. Oh well....
Does your Bible have God's name Jehovah in it?
The Recovery Version which I use most does use the name Jehovah following Darby's New Translation and the 1901 ASV.
I realize that what I said sounds offensive to you.
I am sorry but it is true.
A few things about the way I have dealt with the Jehovah's Witnesses on this forum which you might take into consideration.
1.) I am not eager to talk about scandals because it is the teaching that needs focusing on first imo. We have one poster here gloating over such scandals.
2.) I do not fault JWs for going door to door. It is commendable in a way that they are so dedicated. I do object to taking wrong TEACHING door to door.
3.) Many JWs have a better understanding of the millennial kingdom than evangelical Christians do.
I think I have been even handed in some regards.
It would be hard for me look at a Book of Mormon on my coffee table.
It would be very hard for me to bring a NWT into my room.
I do have a translation of the Quran which I committed myself to reading.
It is not easy for similar reasons in my spirit, in my life tasting conscience.
I know that spiritual arsenic is being approached.
@galveston75 saidWhat does a Spirit need with a throne?
Well the word first born means exactly what it means for anything that is the first born of a human or animal etc. I wouldn't say it's a fair thing to do to change the meaning of that word. If the issue with Jesus were a different meaning then a first born that humans understand I'm sure the writers of the Bible would make it clearer with a different word or an explanatio ...[text shortened]... ther two thrones if they are the same and all equal? Where is it? And what is the holy spirits name?
Serious question looking for a serious answer, please, unlike what you did here.
Isn’t it interesting that the Pharisees knew exactly what Jesus Christ was saying. Check out the last verse in this passage:
“I and my Father are one.
Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.”
(John 10:30-33)
And what do y’all make of this:
“I am the Lord: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.”
(Isaiah 42:8)
“And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.”
(John 17:5)
If God won’t give His glory to another, as He says in Isaiah, and Jesus Christ isn’t God, then how did Jesus have God the Father’s glory before the world was, as Jesus says in John 17:5?
@chaney3 saidI do think the deer was an angel. I don't think it was Jesus, as its assigned task was a simple one, to distract the man from what he was contemplating. You don't send the Boss to do a minion's task.
"The Shack"
A friend of mine wanted me to watch this movie, so I did. There was an important scene in which the man was going to shoot himself in the shack. But....a deer showed up at the door, which made the man reconsider his intentions. (I'm going by memory)
Anyway, when I was finished watching the movie, my friend asked me this question: "do you think that the deer ...[text shortened]... an observation. Not sure why exactly I fight with the Trinity. God can do whatever He chooses to do.
I speak from experience in this regard.