What's important?

To Whom It May Concern:

We're here to focus on and discuss spirituality issues, not to engage in emotional rants about other people's shortcomings.

Thank you.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
To Whom It May Concern:

We're here to focus on and discuss spirituality issues, not to engage in emotional rants about other people's shortcomings.

Thank you.

Perhaps you should think of a better argument than claiming people with different beliefs from you are guilty of "wilful blindness". If this is the best you can do, along with insinuations about the "intellect" and the "emotions" of people who disagree with you over spiritual issues, then I think discussing how hamstrung your brand of "spirituality" has got you in interpersonal terms ~ as seems to be the case with many Christians ~ is germane and valid in a forum like this. Your duckspeak-and-do-not-engage type proselytising is a direct function of your spiritual mind map, and if discussions of spirituality are not about how we are and what we say, then they are about nothing much.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"What's important?" is your eternal address and the eternal address of your family members. It's a personal choice.

[...]

...my focus has been and still is on those without hope of eternal life.

To what degree is it "important" to you to be seen to be not actually engaging "those without hope of eternal life" but to be talking at them through slogans? Is it an "important" aspect of your mission?

Originally posted by josephw
What you are willfully doing is failing to acknowledge that you understand what you're being told.

I have no problem understanding what I am being told. Some Christians believe in the notion of 'once saved, always saved'. Others believe there have to be good works and they can back it up with Bible citations. Others believe that sin can consign believers to eternal torture in burning agony. And there are some who think only a small and limited number of Christians will live for eternity. Others believe that only members of their tiny organisation will be "saved". Others believe that all members of a given denomination will go to "Hell" regardless of their belief in Jesus. And so on and so on.

It is the height of hubris to suggest that someone who does not accept and believe just one particular item from this list of notions and ideologies is doing so because of "wilful blindness". It's just a kind of silly partisan rhetoric rather than anything akin to spiritual insight.

Originally posted by FMF
Grampy Bobby said: "Christianity isn't a religion made by man, dependent on the observance of rituals without reality; it's a relationship, acquired by faith alone in Christ alone. It's much too simple a proposition for those whose intellects resort to willful blindness."

This is quoted verbatim. I think his claims are nonsense. This is not due to "wilful bli ...[text shortened]... rt. There is no "intellectual dishonesty" involved, no matter how many times you claim there is.

Originally posted by FMF
Grampy Bobby said: "Christianity isn't a religion made by man, dependent on the observance of rituals without reality; it's a relationship, acquired by faith alone in Christ alone. It's much too simple a proposition for those whose intellects resort to willful blindness."

What's the problem with what Bobby said? Is he not being honest? Has he misrepresented what the Bible teaches? You've made it perfectly clear that you are much too intellectually sophisticated to acknowledge what the Bible teaches is true, therefore you use the old fallacy strawman and pull Bobby's words out of their context in order to do what you do so well. Obfuscate!

This is quoted verbatim. I think his claims are nonsense. This is not due to "wilful blindness" on my part. There is no "intellectual dishonesty" involved, no matter how many times you claim there is.

And no matter how many times you say otherwise you have a nonobjective perspective about anything and everything said to you by any individual that claims to be a Christian. Try as I might I can't get you to simply understand what I'm talking about and speak to the topic. Instead you seem to try your hardest to muddy the discussion. Every freaking day!

No prob. You can stick needles in my eyes and I won't give in! 😲 😉

Originally posted by josephw
And no matter how many times you say otherwise you have a nonobjective perspective about anything and everything said to you by any individual that claims to be a Christian.

I don't think anyone on a discussion forum and active in a community like this should be overly worried about purporting to have a "nonobjective perspective". After all, neither do you nor anyyone else who has posted on this thread so far. My perspective on Christianity is based on many years of being a living, breathing, Bible-reading Christian; it's based on having lost my belief in the credibility of the one thing that shores the whole religion up; it's based on having escaped the intellectual and spiritual clutches of its ideology; and it's based on several years of engaging openly and honestly with people who are still Christians ~ including those who rather absurdly attribute not subscribing to their particular perspective to "wilful blindness". I have made no claim that my perspective is "nonobjective". Surely you aren't claiming yours is either.

Originally posted by josephw
You've made it perfectly clear that you are much too intellectually sophisticated to acknowledge what the Bible teaches is true...[/b]

I really do not know why you think your estimation of my intellect and sophistication has anything to do with it. You must have met plenty of people before who do not subscribe to the claims the Bible makes about God and about Jesus Christ. Do you always put the fact (that these people have different beliefs to you) down to their intellect and sophistication? I can hardly believe that you do. Surely not.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't think anyone on a discussion forum and active in a community like this should be overly worried about purporting to have a "nonobjective perspective". After all, neither do you nor anyyone else who has posted on this thread so far. My perspective on Christianity is based on many years of being a living, breathing, Bible-reading Christian; it's based on h ...[text shortened]... made no claim that my perspective is "nonobjective". Surely you aren't claiming yours is either.

Well, ok. You're right of course. I was over the top. Again.

Having said that there is one thing about what you said above I'd like address.

"..; it's based on having lost my belief in the credibility of the one thing that shores the whole religion up; it's based on having escaped the intellectual and spiritual clutches of its ideology;.."

"The whole religion" is based on one very credible fact FMF, the resurrection of Jesus, not some perceived intellectual and spiritual ideology, which I am glad you escaped from.

What is it you think you have escaped to? What form of ideological intellectualism have you adopted? What spiritual truths do you now hope to gain?

Have you lost all hope of life eternal? Or is that not spiritual and intellectual enough of a challenge for you to grasp with your mind? You say it's nonsense. Well, how do you know? Or have you merely exchanged one ideology for another?

How do you know that Jesus didn't rise from the dead? Explain how you know that. If you please.

Originally posted by josephw
"The whole religion" is based on one very credible fact FMF, the resurrection of Jesus, not some perceived intellectual and spiritual ideology, which I am glad you escaped from.

I think you are mistaken. Christianity is entirely based on the supposed veracity of the Bible. Its credibility is key. Without it, there is no Christianity and there is no being a Christian.

Originally posted by josephw
How do you know that Jesus didn't rise from the dead? Explain how you know that. If you please.

I have yet to be shown any convincing evidence that he did. For many years I believed that the Bible was convincing evidence.

Originally posted by josephw
What is it you think you have escaped to?

A life in which I witness and examine human spirits in action, and reflect upon my own (and yours), without being beholden or restricted by religionist doctrine or folklore.

Originally posted by josephw
Have you lost all hope of life eternal? Or is that not spiritual and intellectual enough of a challenge for you to grasp with your mind?

If you think that you can conjure up 'eternal life' by simply believing it's going to happen, and if that affects how you live your life, then that is your prerogative. If you think it's a "challenge" that you yourself have "grasped" then good for you. I really don't think that whether you believe something is "spiritual and intellectual enough" for me (or not as the case may be) has any bearing on me, other than being interesting evidence of your demeanour and outlook.

Originally posted by josephw
You can stick needles in my eyes and I won't give in!

Nothing remotely like this is happening here. Do you really believe this quip reflects the nature of this discussion? I mean, really?

Originally posted by josephw
"The whole religion" is based on one very credible fact FMF, the resurrection of Jesus, not some perceived intellectual and spiritual ideology, which I am glad you escaped from.

"I think you are mistaken. Christianity is entirely based on the supposed veracity of the Bible. Its credibility is key. Without it, there is no Christianity and there is no being a Christian."

Right again FMF. The Bible, in which is contained the Word of God, says that Jesus rose from the dead. You question it's veracity, and of course you'll say you question the veracity of everything else as well, but have you found the truth anywhere else? I mean, have you found a truth elsewhere that confirms that what the Bible says isn't veracious?

Originally posted by josephw
How do you know that Jesus didn't rise from the dead? Explain how you know that. If you please.

"I have yet to be shown any convincing evidence that he did. For many years I believed that the Bible was convincing evidence."

But the Bible is the repository of God's Word and it says Jesus rose from the dead. Is God lying?

Originally posted by josephw
What is it you think you have escaped to?

"A life in which I witness and examine human spirits in action, and reflect upon my own (and yours), without being beholden or restricted by religionist doctrine or folklore."

Well then, that means you are the authority. Why should I or anyone else be "beholden or restricted" by what you say? The weight of scripture dwarfs you life's experience by no uncertain terms. It's amazing how you can just cast it aside so easily, as though you've plumbed its depths and can make comparison to all there is to know in life and call it nonsense.

Originally posted by josephw
Have you lost all hope of life eternal? Or is that not spiritual and intellectual enough of a challenge for you to grasp with your mind?

"If you think that you can conjure up 'eternal life' by simply believing it's going to happen, and if that affects how you live your life, then that is your prerogative. If you think it's a "challenge" that you yourself have "grasped" then good for you. I really don't think that whether you believe something is "spiritual and intellectual enough" for me (or not as the case may be) has any bearing on me, other than being interesting evidence of your demeanour and outlook."

Conjure up eternal life? I am not the author of life. I don't conjure up anything. And I certainly cannot "grasp" eternal life. If you were to ask me I'd have to say that I am "grasped" by eternal life, and it will be forever. Of a certainty!

Originally posted by josephw
You can stick needles in my eyes and I won't give in!

"Nothing remotely like this is happening here. Do you really believe this quip reflects the nature of this discussion? I mean, really?"

No, not really. Come on FMF, do you really not get it? I have a sense of humor you know.
🙂

Originally posted by josephw
But the Bible is the repository of God's Word and it says Jesus rose from the dead. Is God lying?

Personally, I think you are mistaken to believe that the claims the Bible makes about God and Jesus are true. I don't think you are lying when you say you do believe the Bible.