Spirituality
20 Sep 14
24 Sep 14
Originally posted by KellyJayRegarding this I think the issues were that you stated
Let me post this again, because you did not address any of this using
scripture you only backed away from discussion without telling me why
this was wrong. Please use scripture to show me the errors, if you are
going to suggest I have very little Biblical support you should address the
Biblical support I give you for my views.
"Jesus stressed how vit ...[text shortened]... ortal bodies because of his Spirit who lives in you.
Does help you understand me?
Kelly"
- Only when someone has accepted Christ then can they do good works.
- Having the Holy Spirit brings God into our lives, making you part of His kingdom
Your response did not provide supporting references. You provided a reference for Christ saying you must be born of water and of the spirit before you can enter into Gods Kingdom. I have no problem with that.
Those are two prerequisites for entry. Those do not guarantee entry. Its like saying in order to graduate you must sit the exams and you must study. Neither sitting of exams nor study guarantees graduation. You still have to pass the exams.
The Bible is also clear that there are those who have been given the Holy Spirit and they still continue to sin and fall away. So that is not a guarantee either or entry into Gods Kingdom.
So the problem with your conclusion is that you are taking Christ prerequisites for eternal life, and trying to make them guarantees of eternal life.
In Romans 8 you do exactly the same thing. You are using the Romans 8 passage to claim that the Christian has Gods Spirit in them so then they will live righteously. Those who have not accepted Christ live according to the flesh.
My interpretation of Romans 8 is along the following lines - The proof that Gods Spirit resides in someone is that they will live God-fearing righteous lives. A life of sin and worldly fleshy living is a sign that Gods Spirit is not in that person.
So the statements you made does not seem to the supported in the Bible at least not by the references you provided.
24 Sep 14
Originally posted by Rajk999You do not see me saying anyone has guarantee entry in any of my posts.
Regarding this I think the issues were that you stated
- Only when someone has accepted Christ then can they do good works.
- Having the Holy Spirit brings God into our lives, making you part of His kingdom
Your response did not provide supporting references. You provided a reference for Christ saying you must be born of water and of the spirit be ...[text shortened]... ou made does not seem to the supported in the Bible at least not by the references you provided.
What you do see me saying is that we can receive God into our lives, as in
He lives in us through His Spirit and we walk out those good works He has
for us. As long as we are with God, we have nothing to fear, but I'd point
out that even Paul said he didn't not count his life as if he had arrived, but
he forgot what was behind him and pressed toward the mark of the high
calling of God.
Kelly
24 Sep 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Where I believe you and I do part company is that you seem to suggest
Regarding this I think the issues were that you stated
- Only when someone has accepted Christ then can they do good works.
- Having the Holy Spirit brings God into our lives, making you part of His kingdom
Your response did not provide supporting references. You provided a reference for Christ saying you must be born of water and of the spirit be ...[text shortened]... ou made does not seem to the supported in the Bible at least not by the references you provided.
in some of your posts that you do not need God's Spirit to be saved, but
instead just good works as if we can now earn our way into God's grace.
Kelly
24 Sep 14
Originally posted by KellyJayWell let me clarify what I said or meant so that we can part company [on this topic] in peace.
Where I believe you and I do part company is that you seem to suggest
in some of your posts that you do not need God's Spirit to be saved, but
instead just good works as if we can now earn our way into God's grace.
Kelly
Here goes:
1. All of mankind is saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. We are ALL saved from sin in the flesh inherited from Adam. We are NOT saved in the sense that we have eternal life. Much of the writings of Paul when he used the word 'saved' he means in the former sense and he is not saying that Christians are saved / given eternal life by just professing that they believe in Christ.
2. Upon accepting Christ or professing belief ie faith, the Christian now has a duty and a responsibility or IS REQUIRED to follow Christ commandments. This act of obedience is the proof that the Christian has taken his duty seriously, and is proof that the Spirit of Christ/God is now within the believer. I disagree with the notion that the Christian automatically does good works or good works is assumed to be done by the converted Christian. Christians can and do live in the flesh.
3. Failure to follow a lifestyle acceptable to God leads to eternal death instead of eternal life.
4. All Christians [and you gave the example of Paul] live in the HOPE of Eternal life, and this is granted at the end when Christ returns to those who are pleasing to God.
5. Romans 2 shows that there are some who know no law but are able to live righteously with their conscience as their guide. God is not so unjust as to allow any of the righteous to perish.
So the typical Christian notion that only Christians can have the spirit of God in them is wrong. All of mankind can have the spirit of God in them and this can be their guide to righteous living.
Here is an example people being baptised and being guided by CHrist without they even knowing it. This is how God operates and he has done it to many people without their knowing :
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1 Corinthians 10:1-4 KJV)
Here is it saying that the Jews after escaping Egypt were baptised and that Christ was with them. Did they profess to know Christ? In response to what God did for them they were required to live righteously and do good works, It is the same with all people. Those who live righteously have Gods spirit within them. Those who live a worldly sinful life are fleshly.
24 Sep 14
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999The way for all mankind has been made to be saved, but it is only through
Well let me clarify what I said or meant so that we can part company [on this topic] in peace.
Here goes:
1. All of mankind is saved by the death and resurrection of Christ. We are ALL saved from sin in the flesh inherited from Adam. We are NOT saved in the sense that we have eternal life. Much of the writings of Paul when he used the word 'saved' he m ...[text shortened]... live righteously have Gods spirit within them. Those who live a worldly sinful life are fleshly.
Jesus Christ, He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the
Father but through Jesus. So we do part company if you are suggesting
everyone can now be saved through works to prove themselves before God
since we do not earn our way into God's salvation.
Jesus said it was good for us that He left so the Holy Spirit can come and
live in us, teaching us, guiding us, and if you do not have the Spirit of God
you do not belong to Him. Worse yet, if you do not have God's Spirit you
cannot please God.
If this is truly what you believe you have changed one law for another and
do not accept the grace of Jesus Christ upon your life or that of anyone
else. We will do works in Christ, but if we do not have God's Spirit we do
not belong to Him, and if we do not believe on Jesus Christ we are without
a doubt condemned already.
Kelly
Luke 8:11-13New International Version (NIV)
11 “This is the meaning of the parable: The seed is the word of God. 12 Those along the path are the ones who hear, and then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, so that they may not believe and be saved. 13 Those on the rocky ground are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
24 Sep 14
Originally posted by KellyJayThere are many Christians who believe that Jews will not be in Gods Kingdom simply because these Christians interpret the Bible with the same narrow interpretation that you are doing... ie believe in Christ means mouth worship.
The way for all mankind has been made to be saved, but it is only through
Jesus Christ, He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, no one comes to the
Father but through Jesus. So we do part company if you are suggesting
everyone can now be saved through works to prove themselves before God
since we do not earn our way into God's salvation.
Jesus said i ...[text shortened]... it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away.
You are saying that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and using that to mean mouth worship and mouth faith and mouth belief in Christ is important.
The Jews dont even believe that Christ came and he died and was resurrected. I quoted you a passage which said that they were baptised and Christ was the rock that was with them.
Jesus Christ can be with and can accept who ever He pleases. Christ said he is with those who follow his commandments... anybody who lives righteously and does good works .. Christ is with them.
You are unfortunately still stuck on this view that Christ belong to the Christian religion.
24 Sep 14
Originally posted by Rajk999Listen, I'm not debating what many people who claim to be Christians
There are many Christians who believe that Jews will not be in Gods Kingdom simply because these Christians interpret the Bible with the same narrow interpretation that you are doing... ie believe in Christ means mouth worship.
You are saying that Jesus is the way the truth and the life and using that to mean mouth worship and mouth faith and mouth belief ...[text shortened]...
You are unfortunately still stuck on this view that Christ belong to the Christian religion.
believe. I will tell you what scripture says, and it does not promote what
you have suggested which is you don't need Jesus in your life to be saved
you only need to be doing good works.
I've never promoted mouth worship, I've promoted you must be born again,
and that is not something you can do on your own, God must give you His
Spirit, you don't earn it by doing good works.
Christ is the Christian religion you don't have Jesus you don't have Christ,
so whatever jesus you promote isn't the Jesus of the Bible.
Kelly
24 Sep 14
Originally posted by KellyJayThe Jews dont believe in Christ.
Listen, I'm not debating what many people who claim to be Christians
believe. I will tell you what scripture says, and it does not promote what
you have suggested which is you don't need Jesus in your life to be saved
you only need to be doing good works.
I've never promoted mouth worship, I've promoted you must be born again,
and that is not somethi ...[text shortened]... Jesus you don't have Christ,
so whatever jesus you promote isn't the Jesus of the Bible.
Kelly
According to you they cannot be saved.
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24 Sep 14
1 edit
1 Cor 10:1-5
Moreover, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware that all our fathers were under the cloud, all passed through the sea, 2 all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, 3 all ate the same spiritual food, 4 and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ. 5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
NKJV
The Jews and Gentiles in the O.T. were saved through faith by the promised Messiah who was Christ. Even though he had not been born yet, they believed the promise of God of his coming, and it was accounted to them for righteousness. That is what that verse is talking about.
Those that did not believe, were scattered as the verse mentions.
Today , we are saved through faith looking back on the promise.
Kelley, you are absolutely correct, no one is saved apart from Christ, good works or not.
24 Sep 14
1 edit
Originally posted by checkbaiterI absolutely agree. Nobody is saved or nobody gets eternal life unless it is the will of God or Christ. Christ said he is with all those who obey his commandments. He is with all of them who live righteously.
..no one is saved apart from Christ, .
Where you are in error is -
- to assume that only Christians can do good works which are acceptable to Christ
- to assume that only Christians have the spirit of God within them while everyone else lives in the flesh.
24 Sep 14
Originally posted by Rajk999I'll take Jesus over your words any day, without Jesus you are condemned.
I absolutely agree. Nobody is saved or nobody gets eternal life unless it is the will of God or Christ. Christ said he is will all those who obey his commandments. He is with all of them who live righteously.
Where you are in error is -
- to assume that only Christians can do good works which are acceptable to Christ
- to assume that only Christians have the spirit of God within them while everyone else lives in the flesh.
Kelly
John 3:17-19New International Version (NIV)
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
24 Sep 14
Originally posted by KellyJayThat passage KJ needs elaborating as you very well know since the devils also believe and tremble ie they know about Christ. Are they also saved?
I'll take Jesus over your words any day, without Jesus you are condemned.
Kelly
John 3:17-19New International Version (NIV)
17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not bel ...[text shortened]... s come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.
So 'believe' really means something other than just to know about Him. Believe must be transformed into action and all of the Apostles explained that believing in Christ means to obey His commandments. Here is one example of many.
And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. (1 John 2:3-5 KJV)
So it all goes back to the same thing.
Belief in Christ = obedience to Christ commandments = good works.
24 Sep 14
Originally posted by Rajk999I have acknowledge that, and I have pointed out to you that not everyone
That passage KJ needs elaborating as you very well know since the devils also believe and tremble ie they know about Christ. Are they also saved?
So 'believe' really means something other than just to know about Him. Believe must be transformed into action and all of the Apostles explained that believing in Christ means to obey His commandments. Here is ...[text shortened]... goes back to the same thing.
Belief in Christ = obedience to Christ commandments = good works.
who says "Lord, Lord" are going to be saved for the very reason you are
putting out there. It isn't enough to believe, but you must be born again,
you must have God's Spirit, you must obey the Lord. You do not get saved
by not accepting Jesus Christ just because you did some good works,
unless you want to call Jesus a liar, and maybe you are good with that, I'm
not.
Kelly
24 Sep 14
Originally posted by KellyJayDo you know who is born again or who has Gods Spirit?
I have acknowledge that, and I have pointed out to you that not everyone
who says "Lord, Lord" are going to be saved for the very reason you are
putting out there. It isn't enough to believe, but you must be born again,
you must have God's Spirit, you must obey the Lord. You do not get saved
by not accepting Jesus Christ just because you did some good works,
unless you want to call Jesus a liar, and maybe you are good with that, I'm
not.
Kelly
You think its only Christians have that privilege ?
You recognise that people cannot just mouth worship Christ and think they will be saved with that. Thats good enough for now.