What's so hard about 'not sinning'?

Originally posted by divegeester
Do you believe in the version of biblical justice whereby unbelievers will be burnt in hell for eternity?

Do you believe in the existence of universal truth?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Do you believe in the existence of universal truth?

I'd be interested in your answer to the question about whether you believe unbelievers will be burnt in hell for eternity. It'd be a shame if you dodge it.

Originally posted by FMF
I'd be interested in your answer to the question about whether you believe unbelievers will be burnt in hell for eternity. It'd be a shame if you dodge it.

I'd be more interested in your answer to my question on whether or not you believe in the existence of universal truth? It'd be a shame if you dodge it.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
I'd be more interested in your answer to my question on whether or not you believe in the existence of universal truth? It'd be a shame if you dodge it.

I've answered it directly on previous threads when you asked me to. By contrast, 'Do you believe unbelievers will be burnt in hell for eternity.?' is a question you have never answered, as far as I recall.

Originally posted by FMF
I've answered it directly on previous threads when you asked me to. By contrast, 'Do you believe unbelievers will be burnt in hell for eternity.?' is a question you have never answered, as far as I recall.

There you go on with the same cop out. Remind me by responding with a simple yes or no.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Do you believe in the existence of universal truth?

I don't know. Tell me what it is and I'll see.

Why won't you answer my question, are you ashamed to say what you believe?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
There you go on with the same cop out. Remind me by responding with a simple yes or no.

The only person doing a "cop out" here, is you.

Originally posted by FMF
And according to your moral philosophy, "pride" is as equally evil as forcing 6,000,000 people into gas ovens to exterminate them, although the latter is presumably a "sin" that most of us find it easier to avoid, though we are - apparently, if you are to be believed - all guilty of the gas ovens thing anyway in the eyes of God regardless of avoiding it.

Interesting, your argument illustrates 'sin' in two opposing extremes... as if one is lesser than the other... and then suggest that someone that would believe sin to be sin, regardless of the severity is in some way problematic, albeit in a subtle manner. Is your intent perhaps to ridicule as some suggest?

Romans 6:20-23
English Standard Version (ESV)
20 For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21 But what fruit were you getting at that time from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the end of those things is death. 22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Pride, which may only be harmful to the individual and not affect anyone else (at least that is what some may believe) and the murder of 6 million by which affects as many but still a person who has committed such a horrendous act has sinned.
If not for the grace of God through Jesus Christ, one's end surely is death in both examples.

Mark 7:21-22
English Standard Version (ESV)

21 For from within, out of the heart of man, come evil thoughts, sexual immorality, theft, murder, adultery, 22 coveting, wickedness. deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride, foolishness.

You see, to God it's all the same, pride and murder (others as well) there is no distinction, sin is sin and death is death.

Look at it like this... let's say for the sake of argument. A silver maple (kind of a less than desirable type of tree) represents sin. When the seed is planted and it sprouts, perhaps you have pride or a lie... we as society have come to accept these as not being a big deal. We celebrate these sins... we watch televisions programs full of this and we sometimes lie to get what we want... in short they are no big deal to us, they are ok because we are not hurting anyone... it is easy to commit and not feel bad about.

Now when the sprout grows into a big tree, it becomes murder.... but now for some strange reason becomes 'not ok', and we want to do something about it, we feel an injustice,,, there needs to be a reckoning, To God for both pride and murder is sin and there has to be a reckoning.

It's easier to deal with pride (the sprout) before it has had a chance to grow than murder (the tree), but both in the end are the same, the only difference is time, time for which development from one stage to the other. Easier to deal with than harder.

Do you think you or man in general have the ability to stand and determine which sin is greater than another? Do you think you have the ability to determine what is right and what is wrong, moral or immoral? Fair question.

After all we could say sin = immoral.

By what/whose standard do you apply in making these determinations?

Originally posted by leunammi
Interesting, your argument illustrates 'sin' in two opposing extremes... as if one is lesser than the other... and then suggest that someone that would believe sin to be sin, regardless of the severity is in some way problematic, albeit in a subtle manner. Is your intent perhaps to ridicule as some suggest?

Well I think the notion that all human behaviour - or, more specifically, that which might be perceived as immoral in some way - is somehow all equally "evil" is literally ridiculous ~ but I think I have been discussing it properly without using 'ridicule'. I think it's utterly incoherent, morally speaking.

Indeed, How can a 'moral compass' function in a mental landscape where being angry with someone, or looking at someone from the opposite sex with lust, cannot, morally speaking, be differentiated from exterminating 6,000,000 innocent people?

Originally posted by leunammi

Do you think you or man in general have the ability to stand and determine which sin is greater than another? Do you think you have the ability to determine what is right and what is wrong, moral or immoral? Fair question.

After all we could say sin = immoral.

By what/whose standard do you apply in making these determinations?

I don't think "sin" exists at all, except in the minds of people who think God has revealed Himself to them. Other than in those imaginations, I have no reason to believe that there is any real or actual thing such as "sin".

Do I think we have the ability to determine what is right and what is wrong, moral or immoral? Yes, of course. But if you need ancient Hebrew texts and a retail religion to prevent yourself from doing immoral things, then I welcome that effect it has on you.

I believe that "sin" and "immorality" are different things with different purposes, and the fact they might overlap in certain ways is of no great significance.

Morality (and justice) are social arrangements for governing human interactions. They are rooted in culture and history and anthropological phenomena like religious observances and social governance.

Originally posted by leunammi
You see, to God it's all the same, pride and murder (others as well) there is no distinction, sin is sin and death is death.

Well, I'm not a Christian, so this all seems preposterous.

Originally posted by FMF
Well, I'm not a Christian, so this all seems preposterous.

You have no basis for your morality?

Originally posted by leunammi

To God for both pride and murder is sin and there has to be a reckoning.

So you're not one of these Christians who believes that faith in Christ results in your "sins" being "forgiven"?

Originally posted by leunammi
You have no basis for your morality?

Yes I do, as I have explained numerous times.

Originally posted by leunammi
Interesting, your argument illustrates 'sin' in two opposing extremes... as if one is lesser than the other... and then suggest that someone that would believe sin to be sin, regardless of the severity is in some way problematic, albeit in a subtle manner. Is your intent perhaps to ridicule as some suggest?

Romans 6:20-23
English Standard Version (ESV ...[text shortened]... could say sin = immoral.

By what/whose standard do you apply in making these determinations?

'You see, to God it's all the same, pride and murder (others as well) there is no distinction, sin is sin and death is death.'


I think you are guilty here of biblical misunderstanding. To God, sin 'is not' all the same.

You could probably argue that all sins are equally punished, and more importantly equally forgiven through Christ. (For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. - Rom 6:23) But it is a mistake to argue that to God 'it is all the same,' that he doesn't differentiate in regards to the severity of the sin being committed. In other words, there are 'degrees of sin.'You do your own God a huge disservice if you believe he views pride and murder in equal sinfulness.