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Originally posted by FMFThe act of 'believing' is the key word here. If by believing you mean believing and that is it?, kinda like believing the sky is blue? And nothing more? Then no, I am not that kinda of Christian, in fact I really do not like labels, especially general ones.
[b]To God for both pride and murder is sin and there has to be a reckoning.
So you're not one of these Christians who believes that faith in Christ results in your "sins" being "forgiven"?[/b]
I believe there needs to be a turning from sin, and when we do sin we have an advocate, Christians need to deal with sin and abhor it, not continue in it.
I also believe, all mankind has been forgiven of their sins already through the sacrifice of the perfect lamb on the ceoss, Jesus Christ... all we need to do is accept that gift. Jesus died in our place as a propituation for ours sins, sin that lead to death
1 John 2:1-3
English Standard Version (ESV)
Christ Our Advocate
2 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. 3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments.
In addition to believing there is following Jesus commandments, it's not merely 'believing' alone but both. I also believe it is not following Jesus commandments alone without believing. Faith and works. The revelation of the former gives way t ok the latter, I hope that makes sense.
Edit: Additionally, the whole of the Bible is useful in living out a Christian life and is good for instruction, not the red letters only.
Originally posted by leunammiSo "good works" are a prerequisite for "salvation"?
In addition to believing there is following Jesus commandments, it's not merely 'believing' alone but both. I also believe it is not following Jesus commandments alone without believing. Faith and works. The revelation of the former gives way t ok the latter, I hope that makes sense.
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeGoD, I do stand corrected and you are right, some sins are more agregious than others, and God does see some as abominations also. The only point I am wanting to communicate with regards to sin is that it leads to death, and that being spiritual death for which is what we are ultimately discussing.
'You see, to God it's all the same, pride and murder (others as well) there is no distinction, sin is sin and death is death.'
I think you are guilty here of biblical misunderstanding. To God, sin 'is not' all the same.
You could probably argue that all sins are equally punished, and more importantly equally forgiven through Christ. (For the ...[text shortened]... do your own God a huge disservice if you believe he views pride and murder in equal sinfulness.
Thanks for your comment and the correction.
Originally posted by leunammiI also believe, all mankind has been forgiven of their sins already through the sacrifice of the perfect lamb on the ceoss, Jesus Christ... all we need to do is accept that gift. Jesus died in our place as a propituation for ours sins, sin that lead to death
[/b]
I ought to say that I find no moral content in this creed. I see no moral lesson or paradigm in it. It's just a series of claims that seems to be more underpinned by a kind of misanthropy rather than a basis or code for living a moral life.
Originally posted by leunammiAre you tempted to debate the issue with Fetchmyjunk who has been at pains (today) to assert that all "sin" is equally "evil" and even has insisted that murdering millions of people and pride are "equally evil"?
GoD, I do stand corrected and you are right, some sins are more agregious than others, and God does see some as abominations also. The only point I am wanting to communicate with regards to sin is that it leads to death, and that being spiritual death for which is what we are ultimately discussing.
Thanks for your comment and the correction.
Originally posted by FMFI know this has been discussed in many other threads, some works people some faith people and some faith and works people. I have stated what I believe.
So "good works" are a prerequisite for "salvation"?
I like all of us have not arrived at anything, I do not have it all figured out and will trust the word of the scripture
Romans 10:12-14
English Standard Version (ESV)
12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
After coming to faith 'believing' works follows, we will want to do works and follow what Jesus has commanded... for faith without works is dead
James 2:14-17
English Standard Version (ESV)
Faith Without Works Is Dead
14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? 15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good[a] is that? 17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Additionally, I do not believe in works alone without faith
Ephesians 2:7-10
English Standard Version (ESV)
7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
I don't care to have a salvation banter, I will leave what I said at that.
Originally posted by FMFNot really, I think I will you two at it... I think you rather enjoy that kinda of debate.
Are you tempted to debate the issue with Fetchmyjunk who has been at pains (today) to assert that all "sin" is equally "evil" and even has insisted that murdering millions of people and pride are "equally evil"?
Originally posted by Ghost of a DukeGood point and well said.
'You see, to God it's all the same, pride and murder (others as well) there is no distinction, sin is sin and death is death.'
I think you are guilty here of biblical misunderstanding. To God, sin 'is not' all the same.
You could probably argue that all sins are equally punished, and more importantly equally forgiven through Christ. (For the ...[text shortened]... do your own God a huge disservice if you believe he views pride and murder in equal sinfulness.
Christians often confuse two issues regarding sin.
1. All sin [big and small] needs the atonement of Jesus Christ and in that sense of requiring the death of Christ, all sins are equal in the eyes of God.
2. Sin has various grades or degrees which will be used to grant rewards and punishment in the day of judgment. Some Christians believe that they will escape judgement but the Bible does not support this doctrine.
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Originally posted by leunammiHuh? But I'm not a Christian. Do you not think Fetchmyjunk is misrepresenting your religion? I think what both of you are claiming is far-fetched and unconvincing.
Not really, I think I will you two at it... I think you rather enjoy that kinda of debate.
Originally posted by leunammiActually you didn't. You asked "You have no basis for your morality?" after I rejected the Christian one you put forward. divegeester's question zero'd in on this, as well it might. If you're not a native speaker of English, it's not an 'error' that one should harp on about. But, if you are a native speaker of English, then the feigned 'innocence' above is - shall we say - a tad less than honest. 😉
Did I say that? I asked what was his basis, nothing more.
Originally posted by FMFSo what in your opinion is not far-fetched and unconvincing? That there is a God out there somewhere (based on a gut-feeling) and we can't know anything about him? Is that about right?
Huh? But I'm not a Christian. Do you not think Fetchmyjunk is misrepresenting your religion? I think what both of you are claiming is far-fetched and unconvincing.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkThe stuff you present is far-fetched and unconvincing, yes, and doesn't even make sense. Why would I think, even for one moment, that it was "divinely inspired" or that God has somehow been working through you today in your conversation with me. I don't think God has revealed Himself to you. I don't think He has revealed Himself to me either. What more I can say about it?
So what in your opinion is not far-fetched and unconvincing? That there is a God out there somewhere (based on a gut-feeling) and we can't know anything about him? Is that about right?
Originally posted by FMFOk, I am batting a thousand today... let's not split hairs and let me rephrase my question.
Actually you didn't. You asked "You have no basis for your morality?" after I rejected the Christian one you put forward. divegeester's question zero'd in on this, as well it might. If you're not a native speaker of English, it's not an 'error' that one should harp on about. But, if you are a native speaker of English, then the feigned 'innocence' above is - shall we say - a tad less than honest. 😉
What is the basis of your morality if not from the Bible, or partly from the Bible, or if now at this point in your life nothing at all from the Bible?
What guides FMF with regards to what is right and wrong, moral or immoral, sinless vs. sinful? What is your compass?
Sorry for the confusion.