Originally posted by Suzianne"I think especially atheists make far too much of this "watch them suffering eternally" business."
I think especially atheists make far too much of this "watch them suffering eternally" business. If the typical Lake of Fire espoused by most Christians is a place of eternal torment, then I don't imagine God will be "watching them suffer eternally". More like God will turn His face from them and leave them to suffer alone, cut off entirely from Him.
It seems pretty fundamental to many observers. In so far as we know what Jesus says and did from gospels written after the event by Christians following Paul, Jesus would appear to have radically rejected all notions of revenge, and not only advocated but practised quiet and uncomplaining acceptance of unjust treatment. When he is quoted saying "Father, forgive them, they know not what they are doing," there is no implication that Father will reply to him by saying "Sorry son, but it's the lake of fire for them. They have only themselves to blame of course."
Somewhere along the line, Paul (e.g. in Romans) resurrects the option for revenge and the assurance that, however weak we may be today, and 1 Corinthians suggests we are pretty weak and stupid too, in good time our enemies and persecutors will suffer the torment of the damned and boy will they be sorry then.
Look you cannot have this both ways. Is this God one who advocates forgiveness or one who promises revenge? If the latter, then Jesus is not going to agree with his Father on the matter.
Originally posted by finneganIs this God one who advocates forgiveness or one who promises revenge?
"I think especially atheists make far too much of this "watch them suffering eternally" business."
It seems pretty fundamental to many observers. In so far as we know what Jesus says and did from gospels written after the event by Christians following Paul, Jesus would appear to have radically rejected all notions of revenge, and not only advocated but p ...[text shortened]... promises revenge? If the latter, then Jesus is not going to agree with his Father on the matter.
He does both. Why do you believe this must be an either/or proposition... is he this god, or is he that god?
The choices we make determine what will happen to us. He offers forgiveness as well as advocates it by encouraging us to be forgiving. And if by "promise" you mean will our rejecting his offer of forgiveness expose us to his wrath, then yes. It will.
So you can choose to expose yourself to wrath, or choose to accept an offer of forgiveness... you're not dealing with a committee of gods simply because you have a choice to make. You can yes to God, or you can say no. This isn't a Phd candidate test... this is really very easy to understand.
http://usa2014.voices.wooster.edu/files/2014/01/No-Shirt-Shoes-Service-Sign-S-7453.gif
Originally posted by lemon limeI am aware that Christians worship a god who is vengeful and I remain mindful that this is not consistent with the account of Jesus. Phrased differently, Christians are not reliable in their description of what their faith entails.
[b]Is this God one who advocates forgiveness or one who promises revenge?
He does both. Why do you believe this must be an either/or proposition... is he this god, or is he that god?
The choices we make determine what will happen to us. He offers forgiveness as well as advocates it by encouraging us to be forgiving. And if by "promise" you mean ...[text shortened]... d, or you can say no. This isn't a Phd candidate test... this is really very easy to understand.[/b]
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Originally posted by finneganChristians are not reliable in their description of what their faith entails.
I am aware that Christians worship a god who is vengeful and I remain mindful that this is not consistent with the account of Jesus. Phrased differently, Christians are not reliable in their description of what their faith entails.
That's because it's a secret. How many times do I need to keep saying this? You're not supposed to know. If you discover what this secret is all of your hair will catch on fire... all of it.
do not seek and you will not find
Originally posted by lemon limeClearly not the case but perhaps it is a lie.
[b]Christians are not reliable in their description of what their faith entails.
That's because it's a secret. How many times do I need to keep saying this? You're not supposed to know. If you discover what this secret is all of your hair will catch on fire... all of it.
Do not seek and you will not find...[/b]
Originally posted by lemon limeThe intellect, as a means for the preservation of the individual, unfolds its chief powers in simulation; for this is the means by which the weaker, less robust individuals preserve themselves, since they are denied the chance of waging the struggle for existence with horns or the fangs of beasts of prey. In man this art of simulation reaches its peak: here deception, flattering, lying and cheating, talking behind the back, posing, living in borrowed splendor, being masked, the disguise of convention, acting a role before others and before oneself—in short, the constant fluttering around the single flame of vanity is so much the rule and the law that almost nothing is more incomprehensible than how an honest and pure urge for truth could make its appearance among men. They are deeply immersed in illusions and dream images; their eye glides only over the surface of things and sees "forms"; their feeling nowhere lead into truth, but contents itself with the reception of stimuli, playing, as it were, a game of blindman's buff on the backs of things.
Perhaps. And if a sign says "no shirt, no shoes, no service" I could go in shirtless and expect to be served... I'm not going to let a sign determine my expectations.
...
Only through forgetfulness can man ever achieve the illusion of possessing a "truth" ... If he does not wish to be satisfied with truth in the form of a tautology—that is, with empty shells—then he will forever buy illusions for truths.
Nietzsche; Truth_and_Lie_in_an_Extra-Moral_Sense
Originally posted by finneganI was something of a Nietzsche myself back in the day. I waxed eloquent among peers with long wavy hair, tie dyed shirts and bell bottom jeans. I could go on and on about "them", the ones who were not as enlightened as "us" until the cows came home in the morning...
The intellect, as a means for the preservation of the individual, unfolds its chief powers in simulation; for this is the means by which the weaker, less robust individuals preserve themselves, since they are denied the chance of waging the struggle for existence with horns or the fangs of beasts of prey. In man this art of simulation reaches its peak: here ...[text shortened]... n he will forever buy illusions for truths.
Nietzsche; Truth_and_Lie_in_an_Extra-Moral_Sense
... and then I had to milk the cows, because they get cranky if they're not milked every day.
Originally posted by lemon limeInteresting that you interpreted Nietzsche in that way and revealing - about you and your cultural location.
I was something of a Nietzsche myself back in the day. I waxed eloquent among peers with long wavy hair, tie dyed shirts and bell bottom jeans. I could go on and on about "them", the ones who were not as enlightened as "us" until the cows came home in the morning...
... and then I had to milk the cows, because they get cranky if they're not milked every day.
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-Removed-Sorry, that was unintentionally vague.
I meant information that can be found in the Bible, or from some other trustworthy source. I assumed you understood this in context... I should have realized you might have gleaned a different meaning from "look for information".
If you are offended by a Southern Baptists approach to the gospel you are free to look for information from some other source.
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Originally posted by finneganIn case you're wondering, I wasn't mocking Nietzsche or you... I was mocking a memory of myself from a long time ago.
Interesting that you interpreted Nietzsche in that way and revealing - about you and your cultural location.
One of my daughters found an old picture of me with long wavy hair, and wearing a tie dyed shirt and bell bottom jeans. I can't blame her for laughing at old dad, because she's a chip off the old block head. The apple didn't fall far from the tree.
Originally posted by lemon limeto be thatNo I was not concerned about being mocked, thanks. I have been reading Nietzsche for the past month and find him fascinating to work on. Until now he has been a mystery to me and he is suddenly becoming more clear. I do not connect him with ideas of elitism nor mockery of lesser people. If there is an essential idea, I take this to be that behaving entirely in accordance with our instinctive inclinations makes us no morally different to the animals around us - hence belonging to the herd or to a herd mentality - but that we each have the capacity to achieve something better by challenging and overcoming our inclinations. The life we should want is not one that is free from struggle or pain, but one in which we accept suffering as a necessary - hence unavoidable - part of a really worthwhile life. I also notice that, if his words are carefully observed, he is deeply proud of his insights but depressingly aware of the limitations imposed on him through his dreadfully poor health. It is his fictional character, Zarathustra, not the human Nietzsche, that he puts forward as a model of what can be achieved. There is pathos in the boasting language. And in the end he begs not to be misunderstood (having worked hard to make it likely he would be!).
In case you're wondering, I wasn't mocking Nietzsche or you... I was mocking a memory of myself from a long time ago.
One of my daughters found an old picture of me with long wavy hair, and wearing a tie dyed shirt and bell bottom jeans. I can't blame her for laughing at old dad, because she's a chip off the old block head. The apple didn't fall far from the tree.