Why did they want to stone him?

I'd like to try to sum up my point of the OP.

The Jews (of several occasions but specifically here) were picking up stones to stone Jesus because he said something they thought was blasphemous i.e. relating to a false or unedifying statement about Jehovah. Jesus is quoted (in every Bible translation I've read) as saying "Before Abraham was I AM" which is of course stating that he is both existing across time and indeed the entity called Jehovah in the OT who originally called himself I AM.

A few of points to consider:
1) He did say it as published and was telling the truth - and they would stone him for it
2) He did say it as published and was lying - and they would stone him for it
3) He didn't say it but instead said some along the lines of 'I existed before Abraham but I am NOT God', and he was telling the truth - but then why would they stone him and not just mock him as they did on many other occasions? (if he is who the JW's say he is he would NOT lie or miss-represent himself)
4) As per 3 but he was lying - they would not stone but they would mock him.

Everyone of us interested needs to choose who we believe Jesus claimed to be and who he actually is. The Jews wanted to stone him for claiming his (eternal) deity:

I think most of would agree it is either point 1) or point 2) above. If he was lying and was in fact #4), then why believe in him?

Titus talked of his hope in 2:13
"while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ". Does that sound like an angel or a prophet?

Isaiah said in 9:6:
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. -- Does this sound like an angel, or a Child who will be called mighty God??

Jesus was the Son of God whilst he was in the flesh, but his eternal essence, his spirit, his deity was the mighty God our everlasting Father. Or how else could Paul write about him in Colossians as being:

"the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form" (Colossians)

He's not an angel or a prophet or a hippy or a socialist, I say he is the eternal living singular God who wrapped himself in a veil of flesh to come an reconcile mankind to himself.

How can we who call ourselves Christians deny him his. When Philip said to Jesus "show us the Father" Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'?

Simple question folks, who do you say that he is?

Originally posted by divegeester
I'd like to try to sum up my point of the OP.

The Jews (of several occasions but specifically here) were picking up stones to stone Jesus because he said something they thought was blasphemous i.e. relating to a false or unedifying statement about Jehovah. Jesus is quoted (in every Bible translation I've read) as saying "Before Abraham was I AM" whic ...[text shortened]... , 'Show us the Father'?

Simple question folks, who do you say that he is?

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Originally posted by RJHinds
I'm sure he would, even though he is only an atheist I believe he hates my
guts, too.

I'm sure he would, even though he is only an atheist I believe he hates my guts, too.

Only an atheist eh? What a revealing insight that is into your character Ron. If you must know, i don't hate you, far from it in fact. 'Pity' is a more suitable description.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Dive's post is very good. I enjoyed reading it.

I would add to it that His coming was not only redemptive.
He came not only for the sake of the forgivneness of our sins.

He came to produce others like Himself - Godmen - humans living in union with God. I do not mean as objects of worship. I do not mean that there is more than one HEAD of the Body of Christ. His is the unique Headship of the Body for He is God in eternity become a man.

He came for duplication also. And only ONE verse I will mention at this time before I address Rajk999's reference

[qs] Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? [/qs]

First - Duplication - "Truly, truly I say to you, Unless the grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies it bears much fruit." (John 12:24)

This is the duplication aspect of Christ's death and resurrection. The divine life concealed within the shell of His humanity was released into many who were redeemed by His blood. They become "partakers of the divine nature" (2 Pet. 1:4)

The many grains are the much fruit duplicated by the death and resurrection of the Son of God. They are born of God to be children of God. They are children of God to mature into sons of God. The purpose of God is to conform them to the image of the "Firstborn" Son of God " ... that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers" (Romans 8:29).

Now, in order to suffer death He had to be a man. And this death was of eternal effectiveness and eternal effacacy. So He had also to be God. His being a MAN qualifies Him to DIE. His being GOD makes His death eternally significant with eternal effacacy.

The MAN part of Him was judged by God and forsaken by the Father. So in His humanity He cries out on the cross:

"My God, my God, why have you forsaken Me." (Matt. 27:46)

This is the sound of the one grain containing the divine life, falling into the ground that the many grains could be brought forth. And this is why we say God is Trinity. For what human language can express how the Word Who was God also dies a redemptive death bearing in His body the sins of the world - forsaken by God.

Do you not have more sympathy for the ancient Christian brothers who grappled with these verses to defend the entire revelation of Christ?

Sure God is the Triune God. The Son shed the blood of God on the cross. That is the blood of God become a man - Jesus of Nazareth. The Apostle Paul reminds the Ephesians elders that the blood of Christ's cross was that of God Himself incarnate.

"Take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among whom the Holy Spirit has placed you as overseers to shepherd the church of God, which He obtained with His own blood." (Acts 20:28)

God obtained the New Testament church with His [God's] own blood. For the child was the Mighty God. And the Son was the incarnation of the Eternal Father.

Isn't the Trinity WONDERFUL !? Isa. 9:6 says so, I think.

Originally posted by jaywill

Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?

Dive's post is very good. I enjoyed reading it.

I would add to it that His coming was not only redemptive.
He came not only for the sake of the forgivneness of our sins.

He came to produce others like Himself - Godmen - humans living in union with God. I do not mean as objects o ...[text shortened]... ther.

Isn't the Trinity [b]WONDERFUL !? Isa. 9:6 says so, I think.[/b]

Interesting Jaywill. You said

Do you not have more sympathy for the ancient Christian brothers who grappled with these verses to defend the entire revelation of Christ?

Somehow I dont think that the early Apostles who had Holy Spirit gifts, who were inspired and blessed by God who gave them wisdom and understanding in things relevant to their ministry and some who even knew Christ personally, were grappling with any verses or concepts.

Those who grapple with these teachings of the nature of Christ and God etc are those who go off on their own doctrinal crusade in an effort to change the teachings of Paul and the other early apostles.

And they are bound to grapple, becuase they are not inspired by God neither do they possess Holy Spirit gifts which is required for proper understanding. This is why it is so important to stay with what was clearly preached in the Bible.

Do you think that any of the early RC Church leaders who formulated the Trinity doctrine were inspired by God or had Holy Spirit gifts like Paul did?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Interesting Jaywill. You said

Do you not have more sympathy for the ancient Christian brothers who grappled with these verses to defend the entire revelation of Christ?

Somehow I dont think that the early Apostles who had Holy Spirit gifts, who were inspired and blessed by God who gave them wisdom and understanding in things relevant to th ...[text shortened]... who formulated the Trinity doctrine were inspired by God or had Holy Spirit gifts like Paul did?

Interesting Jaywill. You said

Do you not have more sympathy for the ancient Christian brothers who grappled with these verses to defend the entire revelation of Christ?

Well, we often assume that some of these old Christian brothers were not too smart. I mean, had WE been there we would have amply schooled them on the problems of a Trinity.

We were not in their situation in all regards. And they were FORCED to defend the Gospel from attacks on the Person of Christ. In there defenses words like "Trinity" came into the vocabulary.

I do not deny that the word may be problematic. But I see how the need for some expression could have arisen in their labors to defend the Person of Christ. He is God and He is Man.

Somehow I dont think that the early Apostles who had Holy Spirit gifts, who were inspired and blessed by God who gave them wisdom and understanding in things relevant to their ministry and some who even knew Christ personally, were grappling with any verses or concepts.

The epistle of First John, plus his Gospel indicate that already the Apostle was defending the truth against the attacks of heretics and antichrist teachers.

John may not have used the word "Trinity". But without question John was Godness of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

And Paul wrote much about the Triune God in the way of experience rather than formal theological system. Some systemization is necessary. And in systemization there lurks plenty of misunderstanding and the pit falls of the limitation of human language.

But apart from systemization - the Word was with God and the Word was God. That is QUOTATION. And that reveals something mysterious and hard to utter about the nature of the Son and Father relationship.

If someone want to affix blame for a concept of a three-one God, that person should blame the Bible. For it is the Bible that told us the Word Who became flesh was with God and WAS God.

Those who grapple with these teachings of the nature of Christ and God etc are those who go off on their own doctrinal crusade in an effort to change the teachings of Paul and the other early apostles.

We don't go off on a doctrinal crusade necessarily. Neither do we submit to wrong concepts such as those claiming that Christ is not fully God.

Some people who want to introduce their own imperfect concepts, robbing Christ of some of His attributes, may do so under the excuse that OTHERS are on a doctrinal crusade.

My God is the Man Jesus, now and forever. That is what the Bible reveals to me.
If the term "Triune God" helps in defending that truth, that is ok with me.

And they are bound to grapple, becuase they are not inspired by God neither do they possess Holy Spirit gifts which is required for proper understanding. This is why it is so important to stay with what was clearly preached in the Bible.

I am all for staying with what is clearly preached in the Bible - ALL of WHAT IS CLEARLY PREACHED! . Not SOME of what is clearly preached.

You touted before that we should not pray to Jesus. That is not true at all. Paul said he besought the Lord Jesus three times. That was not praying ? Of course it involved the Apostle praying:

"Concerning this [thorn in the flesh] I entreated the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He has said to me, My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness." (2 Cor. 12:9)

I am positive that that was not the ONLY time Paul besought the Lord Jesus Christ in prayer. And that Lord is Jesus Christ in Second Corinthians - "Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the LORD Jesus Christ." (2 Cor. 1:1)

And again: "For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord ..." (4:5)

So Paul besought Christ Jesus the Lord in prayer. And I need no Jehovah's Witness or anyone else to do a dance around and claim that that was not Paul praying to Jesus Christ.

Furthermore, to believe ALL, ALL, that the Scripture has said, I MUST believe that the Lord is the Holy Spirit:

"And the LORD is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom." (2 Cor. 3:17)

The Holy Spirit is therefore OF the Lord and IS the Lord. This is very much like the Word was WITH God and yet the Word WAS God.

The truth of the Triune God is quite secure. Have you not also read of "the Lord and of His Christ" (Rev. 11:15) ? .

And yet there is ONE Lord ( Eph. 4:5). And there is ONE God (Eph. 4:6)

I stand upon these truths regardless of accusations of being on a doctrinal crusade. Why can't you just be general about it, not prefering the word Trinity, yet also not FIGHTING against the use of it ? Just love us in the Lord.

The shorter version of the post above might be:


Ephesians says that there is one Lord.

Revelation says that the Father is the Lord and has His Christ.

The Corinthian letters identify Jesus Christ as the Lord.

The Corinthian letters also say that the Lord is the Spirit.

Compare Ephesians 4:5; Revelattion 11:15; 1 Cor. 1:1; 2 Cor. 1:1; 2 Cor. 3:17.

So the Lord is simultaneously the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by jaywill

Interesting Jaywill. You said

Do you not have more sympathy for the ancient Christian brothers who grappled with these verses to defend the entire revelation of Christ?

Well, we often assume that some of these old Christian brothers were not too smart. I mean, had WE been there we would have amply schooled them on the problems of a ...[text shortened]... nity, yet also not FIGHTING against the use of it ? Just love us in the Lord.

I have more comments on this post later but for now let me state that I have no hostile intentions to any Trinity believer. I dont think the doctrine of the Trinity to be of any consequence to ones salvation and I consider all of those professing to believe in Christ as their Lord and saviour, to be my brethren in Christ, notwithstanding minor differences. Christ will judge who are real followers and who are not. Thats his call not mine.

My question for now is this .. What value does the doctrine of the Trinity add to the gospel of Paul? For me it certainly complicates the issue, rather than simplifies it.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'd like to try to sum up my point of the OP.

The Jews (of several occasions but specifically here) were picking up stones to stone Jesus because he said something they thought was blasphemous i.e. relating to a false or unedifying statement about Jehovah. Jesus is quoted (in every Bible translation I've read) as saying "Before Abraham was I AM" whic ...[text shortened]... , 'Show us the Father'?

Simple question folks, who do you say that he is?

the simple yet perplexing question remains unanswered, , where did Jesus state that he
was Almighty God incarnate?

where did he say it divesgeester?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the simple yet perplexing question remains unanswered, , where did Jesus state that he
was Almighty God incarnate?

where did he say it divesgeester?

He said it many times. The Pharisee and the High Priest of the Jews
understood Him. Many on this site understand that He was saying it.
Only the blind, like yourself, can not see it in his words. You are asking
for the Holy Bible to be rewritten so robbie carrobie can see it in the
exact words that he demands. God does not have to cowtail to anyone,
especially to the likes of you. So you are going to have to take it or
leave it and it is quite clear you have chosen to leave it.

Originally posted by Rajk999
I have more comments on this post later but for now let me state that I have no hostile intentions to any Trinity believer. I dont think the doctrine of the Trinity to be of any consequence to ones salvation and I consider all of those professing to believe in Christ as their Lord and saviour, to be my brethren in Christ, notwithstanding minor differences. ...[text shortened]... add to the gospel of Paul? For me it certainly complicates the issue, rather than simplifies it.

The Holy Bible says nothing about that you must believe in the Trinity to
be saved. It does not say you have to believe the Holy Spirit is God to be
saved. It does not even say you have to believe the Father is God to be
saved. What it does say is that you must believe on the Lord Jesus the
Christ to be saved. IT ALSO SAYS THAT IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THE
LORD JESUS THE CHRIST IS GOD, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS.

Originally posted by RJHinds
He said it many times. The Pharisee and the High Priest of the Jews
understood Him. Many on this site understand that He was saying it.
Only the blind, like yourself, can not see it in his words. You are asking
for the Holy Bible to be rewritten so robbie carrobie can see it in the
exact words that he demands. God does not have to cowtail to anyone, ...[text shortened]... you are going to have to take it or
leave it and it is quite clear you have chosen to leave it.

where does Jesus say it then, it should be simple enough to point it out in the text,
where does Jesus say it, either produce it or its a lie and you and the other trinitarians
are spreading lies. I will repeat it again until you answer it,

the simple yet perplexing question remains unanswered, , where did Jesus state that he
was Almighty God incarnate?

Originally posted by RJHinds
The Holy Bible says nothing about that you must believe in the Trinity to
be saved. It does not say you have to believe the Holy Spirit is God to be
saved. It does not even say you have to believe the Father is God to be
saved. What it does say is that you must believe on the Lord Jesus the
Christ to be saved. IT ALSO SAYS THAT IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THE
LORD JESUS THE CHRIST IS GOD, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS.

Do you have a reference for this?

>>IT ALSO SAYS THAT IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THE
LORD JESUS THE CHRIST IS GOD, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS...<<

Please not your interpretation, just the reference.

Anyway re-read John 8 where you got that passage and you will see that it says nothing about believing that Christ is God. In fact in that same chapter Christ says that he was SENT BY GOD. Christ therefore cannot be God and be sent by God.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
where does Jesus say it then, it should be simple enough to point it out in the text,
where does Jesus say it, either produce it or its a lie and you and the other trinitarians
are spreading lies. I will repeat it again until you answer it,

the simple yet perplexing question remains unanswered, , where did Jesus state that he
was Almighty God incarnate?

You know Jesus never says it in those exact words. He says it in other
words and by His actions. Others have been able to understand what
He was saying and what He did was proof. You are not retarded are you?

Originally posted by Rajk999
Do you have a reference for this?

>>IT ALSO SAYS THAT IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE THE
LORD JESUS THE CHRIST IS GOD, YOU WILL DIE IN YOUR SINS...<<

Please not your interpretation, just the reference.

Anyway re-read John 8 where you got that passage and you will see that it says nothing about believing that Christ is God. In fact in that same chapter Christ says that he was SENT BY GOD. Christ therefore cannot be God and be sent by God.

I Hope you appeciate the trouble I went through to explain this to you.
If you don't then never ask me another question.

And He said to them, “You are from beneath; I am from above. You are of this world;
I am not of this world. Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for
if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
(John 8:23-24 NKJV)

The following is a reference to the Greek Interlinear Bible so you can see
what the Greek says:

http://interlinearbible.org/john/8-24.htm

Notice the translation of the Greek "ego eimi" is "I am He" instead of just "I am"
as was done in John:8:58. The margin of my NASB says "Most authorities associate
this with Exodus 3:14 "I AM WHO I AM". The "He" with the capital "H" was added to
insure the English reader knew that "I AM" referred to GOD, the GOD that appeared
to Moses in the burning bush whose name is "I AM" in English. So to make it clear
to you, I merely substitued who "He" is and that is "GOD".

Jesus said,
"If you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”

That is,

"If you do not believe that I am GOD, you will die in your sins.”

Now for you second objection in which you say God can not send God.
You are forgetting that the Father is God as well as the Son is God.
The Son spoke of the Father and called Him God.
The Father spoke of the Son and also called Him God.

see the following from Hebrews and Psalms:


For to which of the angels did He ever say,

“YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU”?

And again,

“I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME”?

And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,

“AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM.”

And of the angels He says,

“WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE.”

But of the Son He says,

“YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
“YOU HAVE LOVED RIGHTEOUSNESS AND HATED LAWLESSNESS;
THEREFORE GOD, YOUR GOD, HAS ANOINTED YOU
WITH THE OIL OF GLADNESS ABOVE YOUR COMPANIONS.”

(Hebrews 1:5-9) The author of Hebrew was quoting from the
Old Testment Psalms 45:6-7.

God the father is calling His Son God in Hebrews 1:8 and Psalms 45:6
No man has seen God the Father at any time but He has sent God the Son
into the World to make Him known and to save all that will believe on Him.