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Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyI would not trust anything they say, if you really want to know how we fared under the Nazis, I suggest you visit the holocaust museum,
http://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/hitler-nazi.php
Robbie, what say you about this? The above link?
It appears that your organization collaborated with the Government
of Germany at the time.
At best it suggests that your organization was in dealings with the
Government of the day which according to your teachings is wrong
for you teac akes this claim.
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardtruth/sleeping_with_enemy.htm
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005394
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo you don't want to listen to all avenues of objectivity.
I would not trust anything they say, if you really want to know how we fared under the Nazis, I suggest you visit the holocaust museum,
http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005394
What about this link which also shows Rutherford's letter?
http://mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/wt_nazi.html
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Originally posted by johnnylongwoodywhat is not objective about the holocaust museum? All you need to do is google Jehovahs witnesses and Nazi persecution, its well documented.
So you don't want to listen to all avenues of objectivity.
What about this link which also shows Rutherford's letter?
http://mmoutreachinc.com/jehovahs_witnesses/wt_nazi.html
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI am not disputing that. I accept that.
what is not objective about the holocaust museum? All you need to do is google Jehovahs witnesses and Nazi persecution, its well documented.
But what I am trying to tell you is that according to the links posted,
The Jw's attempted to reason with Hitler's Government and even went
as far as to say that they agreed with their policies and collaborated
with them in order to be able to continue their existence.
Rutherford sent Hitler what he called a declaration of facts
accompanied by a personal letter.
The text of the letter is in the link I gave you.
Hitler gave Rutherford 2 fingers.
It was only after The Watchtower was rejected by Hitler
following the failed attempt by Rutherford to work with
the German Government that the Watchtower condemned
the National Socialist Party Government of Hitler.
This breaks two rules.
1. Your organization attempted to work with a worldly institution
when your God declared that ye should be separate from the world
for the world has been delivered unto the evil one.
Be ye separate from it and its institutions.
2. The Watchtower collaborated with the Nazis and agreed
with its policies. Policies which led to horrific results.
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Originally posted by johnnylongwoodywhatever, the fact of he matter is, we suffered severe persecution under the Nazis. If you want to believe that we collaborated with them, thats your business. Say want you want about Rutherford, its meaningless to me.
I am not disputing that. I accept that.
But what I am trying to tell you is that according to the links posted,
The Jw's attempted to reason with Hitler's Government and even went
as far as to say that they agreed with their policies and collaborated
with them in order to be able to continue their existence.
Rutherford sent Hitler what h ...[text shortened]... rated with the Nazis and agreed
with its policies. Policies which led to horrific results.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieIt sounds like you are in denial.
whatever, the fact of he matter is, we suffered severe persecution under the Nazis. If you want to believe that we collaborated with them, thats your business. Say want you want about Rutherford, its meaningless to me.
I have already said that I accept many of your organization
suffered in the tragedy of Hitler's Germany along with many others
who are not of your religious persuasion.
What I am trying to get you to understand is that the President of your
religion at the time of Hitler's Government tried to engage at that time
with that Government in order to allow the Watchtower to continue its
business in Magdeburg. Rutherford even wrote a letter and provided
a document which stated that he ( Rutherford ) and the Watchtower
agreed with the policies of the National Socialist Party.
The attempt failed and it was only after that,
when Rutherford saw that engagement with Hitler
was not possible, it was only then that Rutherford did a U turn
and condemned Hitler's Government.
After the office in Magdeburg was closed down by Hitler's Government.
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Originally posted by RJHinds( Hum, seems like some body really doesn't like us and has some serious issues. Why is that? From this first section: )
Jehovah's Witnesses believe they have replaced the Jews as God's chosen people and His Witnesses, thus the term Jehovah's Witnesses. It is called Replacement Theology by theologians.
On pages 25-26 of the book “You Can Live Forever In Paradise On Earth” published in 1982, it says this of the Jews:
“Was God really their father? Did God accept their for http://www.yadlachimusa.net/?CategoryID=203&ArticleID=577
"What are the reasons for so much world-wide antagonism to a rather unremarkable and pedestrian Christian sect?
Historians and researchers who studied the subject concluded that the major reason for all the conflicts was the attitude and teachings of the leaders of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'. Writes Dr. C.E. King: “many of the teachings have led the sect into bitter conflict with civil authorities all over the world, in democratic as well as in totalitarian states.”(7) In the words of Dr. J. Bergman Ph.D.: “Especially during the presidency of J.F. Rutherford (second president of the sect), many articles in Watchtower publications were deliberately designed to stir up trouble. Rutherford’s vitriolic attacks were not only against the government, but also the clergy... He repeatedly called them scum, roosters, jackasses, harlots, s.o.b.s, even advocating violence and encouraging Witnesses to stir up trouble."
( I'd like to see proof that Bro Rutherford actually said this, but he could have. I believe Jesus used some colorful words to those men selling their goods in the Temple. )
"Many of the articles would today, no doubt, engender legal action against the Watchtower with claims that they were inciting religious hatred. And the claimants would likely prevail, at least in American courts.”(4) Articles in the 'Golden Age' and 'Consolation' (official publications of the sect) depicted members of other religions in the vilest of terms, and numerous illustrations showed them in a slanderous light. (4),(8)
An American history book describes 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' as scornful of all other religions and notes that “members of the sect repeatedly collided with the law.”(9)
A well-known researcher summarizes the attitude of the sect to the outside world from 1922 to the present as “the extremist attitude”, “it could only be interpreted as complete negation of all governments, religions, churches and international organizations.”(10)"
( Not once have any JW from top to bottom ever damaged a church of any denomination, harassed, chased, flogged, kidnapped and jailed, tared and feathered, beaten, raped, and even killed anyone of any religion on this planet. But yet led by various Church leaders in many countries including America and Canada have done this to the Witnesses.
The only extreme attitude which is not extreme in reality at all but viewed that way by religious leaders and ones such as RJH, is our serious dedication to our God and to follow his son's command to teach and educate all that will listen to it in a world wide preaching work just as Jesus commaned his followers to do.
The religious leaders of the world hate us doing this because they fall woefully short of this and become exposed and never teach or require this of their members. Their members are kept in the dark and are told they really don't have to do this. "Just put your money in the collection plate and all is well'. Just say you believe in Jesus and their is nothing else you have to do, your in"! )
"What is the root of so much hatred for everybody outside the sect?!
Explains Dr. Bergman - “The major reason for their troubles was because Witnesses are taught to believe that all governments and all religions are of Satan - and under pain of excommunication all of them must follow Watchtower policy.”
( Well is this a new thought? Not hardly.....
Ephesians 6:11-12
Good News Translation (GNT)
11 Put on all the armor that God gives you, so that you will be able to stand up against the Devil's evil tricks. 12 For we are not fighting against human beings but against the wicked spiritual forces in the heavenly world, the rulers, authorities, and cosmic powers of this dark age.
Ephesians 2:2
Good News Translation (GNT)
2 At that time you followed the world's evil way; you obeyed the ruler of the spiritual powers in space, the spirit who now controls the people who disobey God.
Revelation 12:9
Good News Translation (GNT)
9 The huge dragon was thrown out—that ancient serpent, named the Devil, or Satan, that deceived the whole world. He was thrown down to earth, and all his angels with him.
1 John 5:19
Good News Translation (GNT)
19 We know that we belong to God even though the whole world is under the rule of the Evil One.
John 12:31
Good News Translation (GNT)
31 Now is the time for this world to be judged; now the ruler of this world will be overthrown.
James 4:4
Good News Translation (GNT)
4 Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy.
So is it just possible that our stand against the world has any connection to these and other scriptures? Of course it does because we have been commanded not to be a friend of any of it. When that happens you get these results of peoples such as in MR. RJH as well as cities, countries and the religions in them, hating us for the word we spread and not being their "friends". )
(4) Another researcher observes: “Resentment ... attached themselves to the Jehovah’s Witnesses partly because of vehemence of their religious attacks on the established order and partly because of the militancy of their proselytizing... they were... preaching that the evil triumvirate of organized churches, business and the State are the instruments of Satan.”(11) Rutherford “declared open war on the State, in which he saw the handiwork of Satan.”(12)
In the Watchtower’s own words, they teach that: “All organizations on the earth that are in the opposition to God and his kingdom (all religious and political organizations outside of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'😉 therefore, necessarily take the name “Babylon” and “harlot.”(13)
And what is their ultimate goal? They openly declare that they work for the establishing of Worldwide Theocratic Government.(14) In other words, replacement of all existing governments by worldwide rule of Governing Body of 'Jehovah’s Witnesses'. The members of the sect joyfully wait for the day when “the rest of humanity would be condemned to death; whoever did not join 'Jehovah’s Witnesses' would have no hope of receiving God’s mercy and would be destroyed.”(15)"
( We wish no one to die. If we did why would we doing this worldwide teaching work that is hated by most and would even do this to our deaths as has happened in many, many countries? If we truley did not care about all humans, what a waist of time this would be on our part both materially and physically as the majority of this works expensis comes out of our pockets.
What an idiotic and untruthful statement for this hater of truth to make!!!)
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Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyNope, you dont know your history, the persecutions and restrictions had already begun, the whole point of the statement of facts was to make the German Government realise that we were peaceable and warranted no persecution or restriction.
It sounds like you are in denial.
I have already said that I accept many of your organization
suffered in the tragedy of Hitler's Germany along with many others
who are not of your religious persuasion.
What I am trying to get you to understand is that the President of your
religion at the time of Hitler's Government tried to engage at that ...[text shortened]... itler's Government.
After the office in Magdeburg was closed down by Hitler's Government.
Therefore, the Magdeburg office arranged a convention to make use of the German citizens’ right of petition. On short notice, Jehovah’s Witnesses from all over Germany were invited to the Wilmersdorfer Tennishallen in Berlin on June 25, 1933. About 5,000 delegates were expected. Despite the hostile atmosphere, more than 7,000 courageously attended. The delegates adopted a resolution entitled “Declaration of Facts.” This document protested the restrictions that had been put on the work of the Witnesses. It made a clear statement of their position and denied charges of seditious links with political causes of any sort.
It stated:
“We are wrongfully charged before the ruling powers of this government . . . We do respectfully ask the rulers of the nation and the people to give a fair and impartial consideration to the statement of facts here made.”
“We have no fight with any persons or religious teachers, but we must call attention to the fact that it is generally those who claim to represent God and Christ Jesus who are in fact our persecutors and who misrepresent us before the governments.”
Is this to be construed as collaborating with the National socialist government. Is it really? Do you notice that its intent was because we had been accused of something?
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Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyPlease provide the quotation where Rutherford agreed with the policies of the national socialist party.
It sounds like you are in denial.
I have already said that I accept many of your organization
suffered in the tragedy of Hitler's Germany along with many others
who are not of your religious persuasion.
What I am trying to get you to understand is that the President of your
religion at the time of Hitler's Government tried to engage at that ...[text shortened]... itler's Government.
After the office in Magdeburg was closed down by Hitler's Government.
With the government in transition and the country in turmoil, the Witnesses wanted to make a clear statement of their position. By means of the “Declaration,” the Witnesses strongly denied accusations of financial involvement or political ties with Jews. Thus, the document stated:
“It is falsely charged by our enemies that we have received financial support for our work from the Jews. Nothing is farther from the truth. Up to this hour there never has been the slightest bit of money contributed to our work by Jews.”
Having mentioned money, the “Declaration” went on to denounce unfair practices of big business. It said: “It has been the commercial Jews of the British-American empire that have built up and carried on Big Business as a means of exploiting and oppressing the peoples of many nations.”
This statement clearly did not refer to the Jewish people in general, and it is regrettable if it has been misunderstood and has given cause for any offense. Some have claimed that Jehovah’s Witnesses shared the hostility toward the Jews that was commonly taught in the German churches at the time. This is absolutely untrue. By their literature and conduct during the Nazi era, the Witnesses rejected anti-Semitic views and condemned the Nazi mistreatment of the Jews. Certainly, their kindness toward Jews who shared their lot in the concentration camps provides a resounding rebuttal to this false accusation.
Is this to be construed as, Rutherford agreed with the policies of the national socialist party. Is it really?
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhatever about others misrepresenting you,
Nope, you dont know your history, the persecutions had already begun, the whole point of the statement of facts was to make the German Government realise that we were peaceable and warranted no persecution or restriction.
Therefore, the Magdeburg office arranged a convention to make use of the German citizens’ right of petition. On short notice, J ...[text shortened]... nd Christ Jesus who are in fact our persecutors and who misrepresent us before the governments.”
I am on about Rutherford. He did a U turn when he found
that he could not work in harmony with the Government of the
day in Germany. So In my view he did 2 things wrong.
1. He wrote a document in support and agreement with Nazi policies.
2. He did not do as commanded by your God to be separate from the world
for the world has been delivered unto the evil one. Be ye separate from it.
Read the links I provided and other links others have provided.
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Originally posted by johnnylongwoodyTell us what was the point of the declaration of facts? It was because we had already been placed under surveillance and had restrictions imposed upon us and had been falsely accused of certain clandestine activities, not because because we did some kind of U-turn as you have falsely asserted without the slightest corroborating evidence.
Whatever about others misrepresenting you,
I am on about Rutherford. He did a U turn when he found
that he could not work in harmony with the Government of the
day in Germany. So In my view he did 2 things wrong.
1. He wrote a document in support and agreement with Nazi policies.
2. He did not do as commanded by your God to be separ ...[text shortened]... e. Be ye separate from it.
Read the links I provided and other links others have provided.
You have been asked now twice to produce a statement that shows that Rutherford was in a agreement with Nazi policies, and demonstrated support for them, so far you have produced no evidence other than your opinion, which is meaningless to me.
I do not believe for a single moment that petitioning the government for freedom to continue preaching and that we pose no threat is failing to remain free from the worlds attitudes. If you want to believe that it does, its your affair, as i stated, its meaningless to me as the testimony of the action of witness during the Nazi epoch thoroughly refutes these ludicrous and slanderous assertions. Shame that for you and all those who choose to believe such lies.
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Originally posted by galveston75The accusations are full of more Bull than a herd of Texan Longhorns dear Gman.
I'll read it later this morning but I see a lot of clever editing here within many statements in this letter. Perhaps that editing should not be done to make it truthful and understandible and to understand what was actually being said?
RJHinds dug up some apostate literature (you know the usual disgruntled ex-witnesses, yawn) because he could not explain why he hated Jesus and had made a caricature of him.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieJesus was all about the Fathers business. He took offense at the activity, much of it dishonest, of the moneychagers in his Fathers house which was suppose to be holy ground and a house of prayer. He then proceeded to pick up a whip and kick their arse. The fact remains that Jesus used physical violence, which shows me that physical violence is not a sin in and of itself. In fact, Jesus laid down his life which was the most violent act in the entire NT. The focus is the Fathers will and how to achieve it, not pacifism. There was nothing passive about the life of Jesus.
First of all we are talking of over turning the tables of money changers who were inappropriately using the temple for business purposes ( i am sure many evangelicals would have agreed with the practice, given their love of corporate business) and Christ, demonstrated his contempt for the practice but over turning those tables and it driving out the ...[text shortened]... ical Christ is no longer recognisable. Which of the evangelicals will man up and say it aint so?
As for RJ hands, so you are using him to characterize the entire evangelical movement? Are you that daft Robbie or are you just that desperate? Of course, Jesus was concerned for the welfare of the poor, there is no dispute there. Where there is a dispute is how to go about helping the poor. You don't help the poor by using a godless system that spends only about 9 cents on the dollar in taxes to help the poor, so they can use the rest of the money to enrich themselves and spend it on other godless activities and bankrupt a nation. That is why I'm unapologetically against the whole system. And if you were worth have your JW salt, you would feel the same since you are suppose to also hold that view.
If the account of God asking Abraham to sacrifice Isaac had not been in the Bible, no doubt you would say today that he would never ask such a thing. Simply put, you are attempting to know the mind of God when it is unknowable. None of us know what his will is in its entirety, and never will. All we can hope to do is seek his will. Personally I think that the creation of the Israeli nation was God's will and it was his will that they conquer the land. It all had to do with bringing for the Messiah from the fledgling nation and using that nation to eventually evangelize the entire world. Don't get me wrong, the battle is not a carnal one, but spiritual one, however, sometimes they intermingle in purpose. Of course, this is my take on the will of the Father, buy you are left with the OT that clearly shows God using conquests to judge both Israel and the surrounding nations. Of course, I'm sure you ignore this as well. Maybe you think that evangelicals rewrote the OT. Having said that, to say that God is against all physical violence all the time is clearly an error, especially when confronted with the fact that Jesus was willing to kick their arses in the temple with a whip. Do I think God likes violence? No, but I think that it can be preferable to the outcomes if certain wickedness is allowed to continue. That is why I think leaders like Hitler and Saddam have a limit to the amount of evil they can inflict before judgement comes. Am I saying that it was God's will that "W" and FDR went to war? No, I'm merely pointing out that the Bible indicates that God has raised up nations in the past to accomplish his will in the form of war and it seems to be you who are attempting to deny this fact.
So what you are attempting to do my dear Robbie is make a caricature of God all your own by ignoring the fact that kicking someones arse in the temple was the will of God and picking up a sword was the will of God in the OT.
And lastly, I have read that evangelicals give more to charity than any other Christian denomination. Again, you overlook the facts and point your self righteous finger at a group who clearly care about the poor.
Originally posted by whodeyright, so now you are trying to compare Jesus to a corporate businessman, 'all about his fathers business', and just when i thought that it could not get any better.
Jesus was all about the Fathers business. He took offense at the activity, much of it dishonest, of the moneychagers in his Fathers house which was suppose to be holy ground and a house of prayer. He then proceeded to pick up a whip and kick their arse. The fact remains that Jesus used physical violence, which shows me that physical violence is not a sin i ...[text shortened]... facts and point your self righteous finger at a group who clearly care about the poor.