Originally posted by robbie carrobieWhat Jesus taught was the Torah, the Law, but it was much deeper. He taught the Torah and also told us that the Law was not just a bunch of rules, it was the heart of God.
I suspect the best place to begin is at the beginning, lets take the first alleged deviation from the teachings of Christ.
Jesus unambiguously preached mercy and forgiveness. These are supposed to be cardinal virtues of the Christian faith. And yet Evangelicals are the most supportive of the death penalty, draconian sentencing, punitive punishment ...[text shortened]... e despite the fact that Christ preached mercy and forgiveness, for clearly there is a disparity.
So, yes, I agree, we should forgive, we should help the poor, etc., this is the heart of God.
Now I ask you, are you putting the government in God's stead? Is the government who we are to worship?
Do food stamps really help the poor? Is forgiving murderers causing them to change their ways? What is rehab? Is rehab changing the heart of a murderer? Jesus said this is where murder comes from, the heart.
So I understand where you are coming from, but the handouts just keep growing. The poor have grown in numbers. We have a record number of people out of work.
So, no, Socialism does not work, it makes things worse. I can look it up, but when government was smaller, and the economy was better, we had the lowest number of poor people.
Yes, we are to give to the poor, but it must be through the church, not the government.
Now to the death penalty,
Man did not invent the death penalty. God commanded that man carry out this form of justice so as to deter violent crimes.
The "death" penalty actually affirms the value of life. Although many people think that the death penalty demeans human life, the Bible says just the opposite. It is demeaning of human life when a criminal takes a life or ruins one by rape or kidnapping, and then "pays" for his crime with only a moderate prison term. Such "justice" sends the message that the life of an innocent victim is not worth much, something that most criminals believe already.
The death penalty, on the other hand, sends the clear message that life is very valuable indeed, and that if a person takes the life of another, the only appropriate compensation is the criminal's own life. That is certainly God's point of view, and He has clearly set forth in both the Old and New Testaments that the death penalty is a necessary antidote to the poisonous influence of evil people in human society.
The first thing to notice in the New Testament is that Jesus Christ never said anything against the death penalty. In fact, he specifically stated that he had not come to put an end to the Law. Even when he appeared before Pilate, Jesus never denied that Pilate had the legal authority to execute him. If he were against the death penalty, this would have been a good place to say it. In fact, there is no record of any person in the Bible stating that the death penalty is wrong in the eyes of God.
People sometimes say that Jesus taught us to love our fellow man, as if the death penalty were not loving. But God is love, and He commanded the death penalty for certain crimes. Furthermore, Jesus got his teaching on love from the Old Testament. When Jesus said the second greatest commandment was to “love your neighbor as yourself,” he was quoting Leviticus 19:18. The Law of Moses did teach love, and part of that love for people and society was to protect them from evil by enforcing the Law, which included the death penalty.
In the case of capital punishment for murderers, kidnappers, etc., not only does God not say He changed His mind in the New Testament, He confirms what He said in the Old Testament.
1 Timothy 1:8-10
(8) We know that the law is good if one uses it properly.
(9) We also know that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
(10) for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders [man-stealers] and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine.
It is noteworthy that these verses in the New Testament say that the Law is good if it is used properly, and then go on to say that the Law was made for people such as murderers. If God had changed His mind about what He said in the Old Testament, and decided that we should not execute criminals, this would have been the perfect place to say so. Surely it is not good exegesis of Scripture to read that “the Law is good” and was made for murderers, kidnappers and the like, and then say that according to the New Testament we should not execute criminals
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThey like their "ears tickled" and have no desire as a whole to do the will of God that his son clearly spoke of. If they actually did his will the churches today would look completely different and with all of it members actully doing his will.
Once again I am uninterested in your political point of view, I am trying to understand why Evangelical Christians have abandoned the teaching of Christ for as I have demonstrated, there is a plethora of Biblical evidence that both God and Christ sought rehabilitation first before punitive action, God in the case of Mannaseh and David, Christ in the ...[text shortened]... t opposition to your assertions. Why do you hate Christ in this way by abandoning his teaching?
Originally posted by galveston75It really appears if they have simply taken the bits that appeal to their own personal preferences, things like personal salvation where you dont really need to do anything for anybody and emphasised it to such and extent that it has invalidated all these other things, it amazing to be honest.
They like their "ears tickled" and have no desire as a whole to do the will of God that his son clearly spoke of. If they actually did his will the churches today would look completely different and with all of it members actully doing his will.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieI am not saying absolutely no rehabilating should be allowed, but not all people can be rehabilitated. So we should be selective as to who we try to rehabiltate and certainly not do it recklessly, so we endanger law abiding citizens. The Holy Bible does not advocate rehabilitating everyone. It is selective and that is the way we should be. Let us think about the victims and the safety of those that follow the law first, before we do too much experimenting on rehabilitaing all the criminals. I believe the liberal way of allowing everyone to do as they please is the way to destruction.
Once again I am uninterested in your political point of view, I am trying to understand why Evangelical Christians have abandoned the teaching of Christ for as I have demonstrated, there is a plethora of Biblical evidence that both God and Christ sought rehabilitation first before punitive action, God in the case of Mannaseh and David, Christ in the ...[text shortened]... t opposition to your assertions. Why do you hate Christ in this way by abandoning his teaching?
Originally posted by checkbaiterWe have established that the death penalty may both be warranted and sanctioned, what about these other elements that the article mentions, draconian sentencing, punitive punishment over rehabilitation, and the governmental use of torture. How will you justify these according to the teaching of the Christ. We can deal with these other assertions in their own time.
What Jesus taught was the Torah, the Law, but it was much deeper. He taught the Torah and also told us that the Law was not just a bunch of rules, it was the heart of God.
So, yes, I agree, we should forgive, we should help the poor, etc., this is the heart of God.
Now I ask you, are you putting the government in God's stead? Is the government who we a ...[text shortened]... like, and then say that according to the New Testament we should not execute criminals
Originally posted by RJHindsOnce again i am uninterested in your political views, i would be pleased if you substantiated your claims with scripture.
I am not saying absolutely no rehabilating should be allowed, but not all people can be rehabilitated. So we should be selective as to who we try to rehabiltate and certainly not do it recklessly, so we endanger law abiding citizens. The Holy Bible does not advocate rehabilitating everyone. It is selective and that is the way we should be. Let us think a ...[text shortened]... I believe the liberal way of allowing everyone to do as they please is the way to destruction.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell then, if we have established that his views on the death penalty are not justified, we are in agreement that the author of this article may have hidden motives and may not be interested in God's heart? That is my assessment, it is his claim that Evangelists support these things, is there a poll? I have to admit I only read his article briefly.
We have established that the death penalty may both be warranted and sanctioned, what about these other elements that the article mentions, draconian sentencing, punitive punishment over rehabilitation, and the governmental use of torture. How will you justify these according to the teaching of the Christ. We can deal with these other assertions in their own time.
So the real question is, do Evangelists really support these charges or is it just government?
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R.C. why have any laws at all? I think we live in an imperfect world and I do have some reservations about the death penalty but the premise of the death penalty is that it actually is meant to put a value on life. You may ask how? Basically it means if a man takes another man's life with malice God will require that man's life. This should be no surprise for one versed in the scriptures such as yourself. In Genesis this is stated by God to Noah and it is expounded upon in the Levitical laws. Some crimes committed were so offensive that even if the criminal fled to the alter of God the priest were to take this person from the alter to face death. It's to put fear in people's hearts that God would not tolerate murder.
Manny
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Originally posted by checkbaiterNot quite so fast, all the author stated was that evangelicals are the most vociferous supporters of the death penalty which seems to him strange considering Christians alleged adherence to the teachings of Christ, teaching like forgiveness and mercy. It takes no great leap of the imagination to see there is a disparity, for even though justice may demand a severe punishment, does not mercy triumph over judgement? the Bible says as much, and if so, why are evangelicals so vociferous then for the death penalty? It cannot be based on the teaching of scripture and must have as its basis some other reason, for clearly Jesus was concerned with the spirit of the Law, not a strict adherence to it, which is entirely wasted on those so vociferous for upholding the death penalty in all cases which warrant it according to law. They have entirely missed Christs example, why and to what extent is what I am trying to find out.
Well then, if we have established that his views on the death penalty are not justified, we are in agreement that the author of this article may have hidden motives and may not be interested in God's heart? That is my assessment, it is his claim that Evangelists support these things, is there a poll? I have to admit I only read his article briefly.
So the real question is, do Evangelists really support these charges or is it just government?
(James 2:13) Mercy exults triumphantly over judgment
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Originally posted by menace71No one is denying that the death penalty may be justified and that it may even have a scriptural basis, however what is of serious concern is why evangelicals, in view of Christ teaching of mercy, forgiveness and seeking rehabilitation before punitive action are so vociferous in their support of it. Surely if they were being guided by Christ's example of forgiveness and mercy, the opposite should be true, they would be the most ardent supporters for rehabilitation, but its not the case, is it. It simply makes no sense.
R.C. why have any laws at all? I think we live in an imperfect world and I do have some reservations about the death penalty but the premise of the death penalty is that it actually is meant to put a value on life. You may ask how? Basically it means if a man takes another man's life with malice God will require that man's life. This should be no surprise f ...[text shortened]... ace death. It's to put fear in people's hearts that God would not tolerate murder.
Manny