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@fmf saidReasoning is always coming to an opinion; not sure why you have rejected that over-identification by suggesting it's only because I hold an opinion that specific things must be. Every truth is absolute, or it isn't true, if its just an opinion it is only its between the ears.
Nonsense. You are the one who is insisting that your subjective opinions are objective facts and absolute truth. Not me.
@moonbus saidYou share the planet with many people who feel that way, and I agree with you about me. God is why I restrain many of my instincts and desires, so yes, with some, even while believing in God, they still don't restrain themselves. I'd say they use God as a get of hell free card to do what they want. Which is the point; doing what we want while being a broken race puts us in a bad place, with God and each other. Since everything belongs to the Lord, He holds it all together; when we harm another here, it is a violation, and we have been in the state for a long time.
If you think if there is no God then everyone may do whatever he wants, then I heartily recommend that you continue to believe in God, because I do not wish to share a planet with you if you think you may do whatever you want in the absence of eternal punishments.
@kellyjay saidI do not know who you mean or think you mean by "we" which for you means that the entire race is "broken". A few bad apples don't spoil the barrel. I do not need fear of eternal punishments not to kill people or steal from them or covet their wives or oxen, and I am not alone in this. I do not see why the whole human race should be judged corrupt because some of its members are. If humans were all as evil and corrupt as you seem to think, our species would have been hunted to extinction by big predators a long time ago. What enabled h. saps to survive and prevail over big predators was an instinct for cooperation and compassion, helping the weak, the aged, the injured, and the handicapped. If it were not so, we would not be here; we'd be extinct already.
You share the planet with many people who feel that way, and I agree with you about me. God is why I restrain many of my instincts and desires, so yes, with some, even while believing in God, they still don't restrain themselves. I'd say they use God as a get of hell free card to do what they want. Which is the point; doing what we want while being a broken race puts us in a ...[text shortened]... gether; when we harm another here, it is a violation, and we have been in the state for a long time.
I observe that the people who build concentration camps and gulags and put others in them are not those who doubt, but those who are very very sure they have an absolute truth. Similarly, the people who launch crusades and Inquisitions and burn heretics at the stake are not those who doubt, but those who are very very sure they have an absolute truth. Pretending your truth comes from God makes no difference to the people cast into the dungeons and immolated at the pyre.
@rajk999 saidHear, hear! Well said. That is what shows at what stage of moral development one stands: among the 7-yr olds or the among the aduts.
Doing the right thing, because it is the right thing to do, and not because of God or punishment, is what separates the sheep from the goats.
@moonbus saidWe as in us all through out our history have set ourselves apart from our creator and each other. The discussion about morality has been about this at the heart of it, we are not part of the whole, we set our own rules we define what is good and evil, we are our own judge. Such a thing just shows our brokenness towards God and each other.
I do not know who you mean or think you mean by "we" which for you means that the entire race is "broken". A few bad apples don't spoil the barrel. I do not need fear of eternal punishments not to kill people or steal from them or covet their wives or oxen, and I am not alone in this. I do not see why the whole human race should be judged corrupt because some of its members a ...[text shortened]... h comes from God makes no difference to the people cast into the dungeons and immolated at the pyre.
Evil can be done in the name of what is good. This is how much evil is done masquerading as good. It is impossible to recognize it if we don’t have something to differentiate good from bad. If we each decide what is good how is there a distinction?
@kellyjay saidI do not believe anyone here, or in the whole history of philosophy for that matter, claims that each person defines good and evil for himself alone. Nonetheless, there are clearly cultural divergences which apply to whole societies over long stretches of time. Polygamy and polyandry, for example, are not only tolerated, but the social norm, in other times and places.
We as in us all through out our history have set ourselves apart from our creator and each other. The discussion about morality has been about this at the heart of it, we are not part of the whole, we set our own rules we define what is good and evil, we are our own judge. Such a thing just shows our brokenness towards God and each other.
Evil can be done in the name of w ...[text shortened]... something to differentiate good from bad. If we each decide what is good how is there a distinction?
@rajk999 saidAgree absolutely.
Doing the right thing, because it is the right thing to do, and not because of God or punishment, is what separates the sheep from the goats.
@moonbus saidIf you are justifying your actions making them all right and correct in the face of opposing views you are. We either are all held to the same standards where we can judge correct behavior by what we acknowledge is true or the whole debate is one faction or view against another. Without any standard binding us all there is no just answer only opinions.
I do not believe anyone here, or in the whole history of philosophy for that matter, claims that each person defines good and evil for himself alone. Nonetheless, there are clearly cultural divergences which apply to whole societies over long stretches of time. Polygamy and polyandry, for example, are not only tolerated, but the social norm, in other times and places.
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@kellyjay saidNo, that is not so. This is a false dichotomy, either one absolute the same for everyone in all times and places, or loony subjectivism.
If you are justifying your actions making them all right and correct in the face of opposing views you are. We either are all held to the same standards where we can judge correct behavior by what we acknowledge is true or the whole debate is one faction or view against another. Without any standard binding us all there is no just answer only opinions.
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As people become more civilized and educated it's harder to support views like homosexuality being a "sin" or that women need "submit to their husbands in all subjection", or that the world was made in six days 6,000 years ago.
It's that simple.
Ah, much more civilized modern man.
Why we just push a button and millions of people can be incinerated in an instance
thouands of miles away. Don't even have to know them.
Great strides in leaving far behind primitive savagery.