Yet you then proceed to try and explain and justify it. If it is a brute fact then no explanation is required, but neither is it justified.
If for example we were talking about a kingdom among men the
King would setup his laws and through his decrees rewards and punishments would
come from him to his kingdom. The laws of any nation without a king, but setup
by some other means still puts foward laws that bind all that are in the nation to
its laws, so rewards and punishments would follow their laws and decrees. And they have good reasons for doing so, as I have pointed out already. I see no good reason for similar laws and punishments in the grander scheme of things where the reasons I have pointed out do not apply.
As I pointed out to you in earlier posts it is no different than working for a living, what
ever the agreement was for a day's pay would be the just recompense due to the
agreement. And I disagree that such recompense is inherently just. In the vast majority of cases in the world today is most definitely is not. We simply have no choice but to accept what we are given or starve.
You think this does not touch upon the topic, since this is the 2nd time
I've spelled this out to you this way, if it does not, please say why you feel that
way. I am not aware of making any agreement with God regarding reward and punishment and if I had, and I agreed to hell as a possible punishment, I would have to be coerced before making such and agreement.
Originally posted by twhitehead Yet you then proceed to try and explain and justify it. If it is a brute fact then no explanation is required, but neither is it justified.
[b]If for example we were talking about a kingdom among men the
King would setup his laws and through his decrees rewards and punishments would
come from him to his kingdom. The laws of any nation without a king, to hell as a possible punishment, I would have to be coerced before making such and agreement.
[/b]You are telling me that where you are, you accept what is offered or you starve?
Here choices are before you, so maybe your world is filled with slaves, you should
move to America or some other nation where slavery isn't the rule of the day.
Kelly
Originally posted by twhitehead Yet you then proceed to try and explain and justify it. If it is a brute fact then no explanation is required, but neither is it justified.
[b]If for example we were talking about a kingdom among men the
King would setup his laws and through his decrees rewards and punishments would
come from him to his kingdom. The laws of any nation without a king, to hell as a possible punishment, I would have to be coerced before making such and agreement.
[/b]The inherent justness is in an agreement to work for a wages paid, you don't want
the job go get a different one or create your own company. If you agree to do a
job you accept its pay package, that is the agreement.
Kelly
Originally posted by twhitehead Yet you then proceed to try and explain and justify it. If it is a brute fact then no explanation is required, but neither is it justified.
[b]If for example we were talking about a kingdom among men the
King would setup his laws and through his decrees rewards and punishments would
come from him to his kingdom. The laws of any nation without a king, to hell as a possible punishment, I would have to be coerced before making such and agreement.
"I am not aware of making any agreement with God regarding reward and punishment and if I had, and I agreed to hell as a possible punishment, I would have to be coerced before making such and agreement."
[/b]You are in God's kingdom your agreement isn't required, and it is up to you if you
want to accept it or reject it.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay You are telling me that where you are, you accept what is offered or you starve?
Yes.
Here choices are before you, so maybe your world is filled with slaves, you should
move to America or some other nation where slavery isn't the rule of the day.
Kelly I believe it is the same in the US. Are you claiming that if you refuse to take any job paying less than 1million dollars a month you will not starve? Or are you saying your time is worth less than that? By what measure do you value your time? What makes you think your current wage is a 'just' one?
Originally posted by KellyJay The inherent justness is in an agreement to work for a wages paid, you don't want
the job go get a different one or create your own company. If you agree to do a
job you accept its pay package, that is the agreement.
Kelly
I understand it is an agreement. I disagree that it is necessarily just. I do not believe that having other equally unjust options available makes any difference to the equation.
Originally posted by twhitehead And if I reject it, then what then? I am really not following you.
What does your agreement or not mean? You are not asked if you wish to be born
into a country whose laws you must obey! You are in God's creation you will be
held accountable for those things you do in it, again your accepting or rejecting
your standing in God's Kingdom is meaningless as your countries laws don't care if
you agree or disagree with them or not.
Kelly
Originally posted by twhitehead I understand it is an agreement. I disagree that it is necessarily just. I do not believe that having other equally unjust options available makes any difference to the equation.
So what scale would you set than? If two people agree if you think one side should
get more or less it isn't just even though they were in agreement?
Kelly
[b]Here choices are before you, so maybe your world is filled with slaves, you should
move to America or some other nation where slavery isn't the rule of the day.
Kelly I believe it is the same in the US. Are you claiming that if you refuse to take any job paying less than 1million dollars a month you will not starve? Or are you saying you ...[text shortened]... what measure do you value your time? What makes you think your current wage is a 'just' one?[/b]
Your time is only worth what you can get for it, you may believe a million a year
is what you are worth, but if everyone else says your time is worth 80K than what
is your time really worth? You can refuse to work and starve, but that is not the
samething as saying you are a slave that is being forced to do anything simply
due to the fact that you can only get 80K.
Kelly
Originally posted by KellyJay What does your agreement or not mean? You are not asked if you wish to be born
into a country whose laws you must obey! You are in God's creation you will be
held accountable for those things you do in it, again your accepting or rejecting
your standing in God's Kingdom is meaningless as your countries laws don't care if
you agree or disagree with them or not.
Kelly
Which is why I am not following you. You started off with an analogy in which you argued that choosing to agree to the terms (and the freedom to reject them) were what made the terms just. Now you state that there is no such choice.
Originally posted by KellyJay So what scale would you set than? If two people agree if you think one side should
get more or less it isn't just even though they were in agreement?
Kelly
No, it is not necessarily just.
Let me give an example:
I live and work in South Africa. I get paid between 5 and 10 times what I used to earn back in Zambia. If I moved to the US, I would earn between 5 and 10 times what I earn now.
Are all three wages equally just? Does the fact that in each country I had a choice of other jobs (not necessarily better paying ones) and that I agreed to my salary with my employer make the wages just? I don't think so. I think I am suffering an injustice if you are able to earn more than me simply because of the circumstances of your birth. You may not agree, but then you probably wouldn't be willing to swap either.
Originally posted by KellyJay "I am not aware of making any agreement with God regarding reward and punishment and if I had, and I agreed to hell as a possible punishment, I would have to be coerced before making such and agreement."
You are in God's kingdom your agreement isn't required, and it is up to you if you
want to accept it or reject it.
Kelly[/b]
I can't reject what I don't believe in. There is no accept reject situation here. I think you are the one destined to be sorely disappointed in your afterlife.
Originally posted by KellyJay You can refuse to work and starve, but that is not the
samething as saying you are a slave that is being forced to do anything simply
due to the fact that you can only get 80K.
Kelly
I never said I was a slave. I said I cannot earn a just wage. The fact that I accept less than a just wage - due to lack of better options - does not somehow make the wage just.
Originally posted by twhitehead Which is why I am not following you. You started off with an analogy in which you argued that choosing to agree to the terms (and the freedom to reject them) were what made the terms just. Now you state that there is no such choice.
When we were talking about an agreement, those that make them have agreed
to do what they agreed to. That is one set of just recompense, while the other
form was rule of law where you are bound to follow the powers that are over
you, since you are bound to the authority over you, you will indeed be held
accountable to that authority. If you have "some form of justice" in mind that is
above all of that, please give the source for it.
Kelly
Why is hell required in religion?
05 Feb '11 06:30
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