Why is hell required in religion?

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, it is not necessarily just.
Let me give an example:
I live and work in South Africa. I get paid between 5 and 10 times what I used to earn back in Zambia. If I moved to the US, I would earn between 5 and 10 times what I earn now.
Are all three wages equally just? Does the fact that in each country I had a choice of other jobs (not necessarily bette ...[text shortened]... es of your birth. You may not agree, but then you probably wouldn't be willing to swap either.

If you agreed to do a job for a wage, you have agreed to work for that wage, period.

Now you can get more some place else, than move to the other place if it means
that much to you, but if you do, you will still be agreeing to work for a wage in
one place or the other.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
No, it is not necessarily just.
Let me give an example:
I live and work in South Africa. I get paid between 5 and 10 times what I used to earn back in Zambia. If I moved to the US, I would earn between 5 and 10 times what I earn now.
Are all three wages equally just? Does the fact that in each country I had a choice of other jobs (not necessarily bette ...[text shortened]... es of your birth. You may not agree, but then you probably wouldn't be willing to swap either.

So why do you feel employees are not being treated justly, why are they so
important that the employers must pay more than others who are paying less for
the same type of labor? Just is still what is agreed to, if you don't agree you don't
work or have someone work for you.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
So why do you feel employees are not being treated justly, why are they so
important that the employers must pay more than others who are paying less for
the same type of labor? Just is still what is agreed to, if you don't agree you don't
work or have someone work for you.
Kelly

This is a bit off topic, don't you think? But about that, I think he is trying to point out the greed factor in employers, they want a competitive edge, the quickest way to get that edge is to screw the employee out of a fair wage. That has been the modus operandi for thousands of years. Don't bother getting better technology when you can just say, well boys, I just found out I can run this operation in Mexico and save a bundle. What do you say, do you want me to hang around here and accept a lower wage or shall I close up shop and open up south of the border? It in fact happened already to my beloved guitar manufacturer, Martin Guitar. They have shifted a lot of their operations to south of the border. They never paid worth a crap in the first place in the US, so they must be paying a couple of bucks an hour down there. I think you could get more money working at McDonalds than here in Nazareth Pa working at Martin. And they get thousands of dollars per guitar, its not like they are 100 dollar knockoffs.

Originally posted by KellyJay
So why do you feel employees are not being treated justly, why are they so
important that the employers must pay more than others who are paying less for
the same type of labor? Just is still what is agreed to, if you don't agree you don't
work or have someone work for you.
Kelly

I'm going to assume you're one of those people who was either born into a comfortable amount of money, or found yourself with a product people wanted to buy and run your own business operating under the rose-tinted assumption *everyone* else can be as business like and successful as yourself and make it, no excuses. This however is unfeasibly naive and optimistic; some people have to make a choice between starving or earning a sh**ty wage for a skill that deserves more than the 'reward' they get.

The product I had to sell (as my own boss or working for others) before leaving the whole rat race and rejoining education was my drawings; but people in general would prefer to get a £5 photoshop filtered "drawing" done in some damned booth than pay me a fair rate for my effort and skills - in so far as selling a product for myself I'm one of those who gets the shaft in life.

The rubbish rates one accepts for doing a job need be me no more fair or just than the fairness or justness of some street thug whose 'turf you walked on' given you could have just handed over your wallet when they asked you to.

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm going to assume you're one of those people who was either born into a comfortable amount of money, or found yourself with a product people wanted to buy and run your own business operating under the rose-tinted assumption *everyone* else can be as business like and successful as yourself and make it, no excuses. This however is unfeasibly naive and optimis ...[text shortened]... ou walked on' given you could have just handed over your wallet when they asked you to.

That sucks.

But it is also an opportunity.

Originally posted by KellyJay
That is one set of just recompense, while the other
form was rule of law where you are bound to follow the powers that are over
you, since you are bound to the authority over you, you will indeed be held
accountable to that authority.

So now not only are you claiming that the outcome of all agreements is 'just' but that all regimes or authorities are 'just'.
Would you care to define 'just' as I am starting to think that we are talking about totally different concepts.

We are going to come into a time on this earth when it will be exposed that with some people "evidence" of God's existence will not be a problem. The problem will be an unwillingness to repent of one's sins.

In these two passages below we have prophetic predictions about some of the followers of the coming Antichrist. You can see that "evidence" for the reality of God is not their problem. But the sheer, unmitigated, relentless prideful refusal to repent is their problem:

"And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who has the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory." (Rev. 16:9)

"And the fifth poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast [Antichrist]; and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain and blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores; and they did not repent of their works." (Rev. 16:10,11)


Maybe they will be cursing "You're not gonna make me love you no matter WHAT !!! I hate You !!"

Now this is my opinion. The world is being set up for a time in which all the "evidence" for a Supreme Almighty God will be unmistakenly revealed to the globe. My opinion is that the long stretch of apparently naturalistic and miracleless history will either gradually or suddenly come to an end.

Things will be going on in the cosmos and on earth that scientists will not be able to explain. In my opinion during this time, the existence of God cannot be doubted. But the refusal of some of thier sins will be exposed.

For some horrible reason the enjoyment of holding out against giving God His place will apparently mean more to them then the repentance from sin and acknowledgement of God Lordship.

" ... and blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains ... and they did not repent of their works" .

No one today is getting struck down in their tracks for blaspheming God. He gives them leeway. But the tolerance of God will not last forever over this world. IMO the evidence of His shaking to heaven and the earth will leave no one with an excuse. The hardest of the hard will still rebel against this. Maybe the dream of riding the world of God once and for all from the Antichrist will so grip them as to be obsessed.

Think of it. Standing against God Himself ... the Satanic thrill will so possess them that judgments cannot deter them.

I would encourage everyone, and myself, to seek the Lord while He can be found. Call upon Him while He is near. It is horrible to be so caught in the obsession of Satan's revolt that neither love and patient forebearance or painful judging chastizement can move one to return to God.

Originally posted by jaywill
We are going to come into a time on this earth when it will be exposed that with some people "evidence" of God's existence will not be a problem. The problem will be an unwillingness to repent of one's sins.

Are you willing to put your money on that? Would you make a bet as to when such a time will arrive?

Originally posted by sonhouse
This is a bit off topic, don't you think? But about that, I think he is trying to point out the greed factor in employers, they want a competitive edge, the quickest way to get that edge is to screw the employee out of a fair wage. That has been the modus operandi for thousands of years. Don't bother getting better technology when you can just say, well boy ...[text shortened]... in. And they get thousands of dollars per guitar, its not like they are 100 dollar knockoffs.

A "fair wage" again some standard is being set here! Who gets to say what is the
fair wage, those that want paid or those paying? "Greed" is being used by both the
wage earner and the employer; one is trying to get more out of the one paying
the wage, the other is trying to keep more of what they make! So again, I go back
to an agreement between the two is fair, if you cannot or do not want to pay what
some someone is asking you pay someone else, if you do not want to get paid
for what someone is willing to pay, you go work somewhere else.

Employers are not in business to pay people to work for them, they are in
business to make money, no one works for someone else for free they always
get something out of it, more times than not is for a wage. If you are going to use
words like 'fair wage' you really do need to take into account both sides of the
wage not just one side. If an area can produce widgets for less due to materials
for widgets are cheap or labor is cheap odds are all the widget makers will find
themselves there, it is the way of it, just like if an employer pays more for the
same work all the workers will want to work for them, that is greed.
Kelly

Originally posted by Agerg
I'm going to assume you're one of those people who was either born into a comfortable amount of money, or found yourself with a product people wanted to buy and run your own business operating under the rose-tinted assumption *everyone* else can be as business like and successful as yourself and make it, no excuses. This however is unfeasibly naive and optimis ...[text shortened]... ou walked on' given you could have just handed over your wallet when they asked you to.

You assume wrong! It is also telling that you'd make such an assumption too, I've
worked 2 jobs at the same time while going to school. I also work for someone
else, I'm not an employer I'm a wage earner. Being a wage earner does not give
my points more or less value as being an employer would. You want your skills
to get more for you, that is greed! You want to keep more of what you make and
not give it to another in pay that is greed! Unless you want to give all you have
away to others there are levels of greed in play. Fair is still what is agreed to, if
you don't get what you were promised that is not just. If you demand more than
what you agreed to work for, that is greed too. If you are bargaining for more,
more power to you, I actually hope you get more than you need and want.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
So now not only are you claiming that the outcome of all agreements is 'just' but that all regimes or authorities are 'just'.
Would you care to define 'just' as I am starting to think that we are talking about totally different concepts.

I've no idea what you think is just when it comes to wages! You have an idea of
what "fair wage" is, but it has nothing to do I guess with the cost of doing
business in one area over another, but you seem to have some other view of
what everyone else is getting. An agreement is just, providing that is what it is, if
you are being forced into something that really isn't an agreement now is it? While
choices are offered and offers are accepted are in play, yes I think an agreement
is just.

Look at what the minimum wage has done in America, a lot of small businesses now
will not hire someone with no skills so they can train them in a craft, instead they
want someone who knows their jobs already, the minimum wage has priced out of
jobs those that have little or no skills making entry level work harder to find. When
you start making "a fair wage" based on something other than what a company
can pay for entry level jobs it negatively affects those trying to get into the work
force.
Kelly

Originally posted by sonhouse
This is a bit off topic, don't you think? But about that, I think he is trying to point out the greed factor in employers, they want a competitive edge, the quickest way to get that edge is to screw the employee out of a fair wage. That has been the modus operandi for thousands of years. Don't bother getting better technology when you can just say, well boy ...[text shortened]... in. And they get thousands of dollars per guitar, its not like they are 100 dollar knockoffs.

The cost of doing business is the cost of doing business, if you cannot make
enough where you are at to sustain your business you either close shop or go
somewhere else. Since the world is getting smaller that is what is going on, you
are not just competing with the business down the street any more, but with
Mexico, China, and so on. Your prices are too high people will buy someone else's
goods that is the way of it. It has always been that way, you go to flee markets
everyone could be selling the same items and one who can sell for less will sell
more. Competitive edges matter in both product and wages, you have a need
for special skill sets and the number of people with them are limited they will
be paid a premium for their skills, if everyone and their brother has all of your
skills sets you will just than be one of many and whoever agrees to work for the
wage being offered will have a job. If you are highly skilled in an area no one
cares about your skills will take you the same way the type writer went.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
The cost of doing business is the cost of doing business, if you cannot make
enough where you are at to sustain your business you either close shop or go
somewhere else. Since the world is getting smaller that is what is going on, you
are not just competing with the business down the street any more, but with
Mexico, China, and so on. Your prices are to ...[text shortened]... an area no one
cares about your skills will take you the same way the type writer went.
Kelly

An additional point, I'm assuming we are talking about a level playing field with
respect to both employees and business, collusion by either is not a level playing
field.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
Are you willing to put your money on that? Would you make a bet as to when such a time will arrive?

I am not a money betting man. And in this case my putting up money and "betting" is like swearing to something.

Jesus said do not swear by anything. He said just let your Yes be Yes and your No be No. So I am content to say "Yes, it will certainly happen."

I don't doubt because the book of Revelation is in the line of prophecy. And God's track record with fulfilled prophecies is too impressive for me to ignore.

The track record convinces me that as many other prophecies surrounding Christ came to pass these too will come to pass.

You'll just have to take my "Yes" I am sure this will come to pass. This stage of history will end with a man and his dupes physically trying to fight against God. (See Rev. 19).

But there is something else very interesting there too. About three times in chapter 18 it says that some people "stood a far off" or some such thing while terrible judgments of God were taking place.

"And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived luxuriously with her [materialistic Babylon], will weep and lament over her when they see the smoke of her burning, STANDING AFAR OFF because of fear of her torment ..." (18:9,10)

"The merchants of these things, who becmae rich by her, WILL STAND AFAR OFF because of the fear of her torment, weeping and mourning." (18:15)

" ... and all who work on the sea STOOD AFAR OFF and cried out, seeing the smoke of her burning, saying What city is like the great city?" (18:17,18)

It seems evident to me that just as there are unreconcilable enemies of God during that time there are others, who stand afar off from the torments of judgment. They seem not to have the good sense to be thankful that they themselves are not being burned up. But if the Bible mentioned four times that these stand apart from the most ferocious judgments of God, there must be different degrees of accountablility.

Some damned, some saved, and some standing afar off from tormenting judgments. I want to be one who is saved from the wrath to come.

So what I spoke I am sure will happen. And probably much more that we are not told will happen. Prophecy is usually just the tip of the iceberg in total details.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Are you willing to put your money on that? Would you make a bet as to when such a time will arrive?

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Are you willing to put your money on that? Would you make a bet as to when such a time will arrive?
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As to when, I would not give dates. Maybe in our lifetime it will occur and maybe afterwards.

It will occur. And Jesus will reign over the planet. I think His reign will extend to the whole universe.

My present opinion is that God made all that real estate for His kingdom.