1. Standard memberdj2becker
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    16 May '05 09:02
    A number of skeptics have said that Muffy created God. But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the statement ‘Muffy created God’ is illogical, just like ‘The bachelor is married!’

    So a more sophisticated questioner might ask: ‘If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn’t God need a cause? And if God doesn’t need a cause, why should the universe need a cause?’

    Here is the reasoning:

    Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
    The universe has a beginning.
    Therefore the universe has a cause.

    The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space.

    Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time — God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’ (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore He doesn’t have a cause.

    In contrast, there is good evidence that the universe had a beginning. This can be shown from the Laws of Thermodynamics, the most fundamental laws of the physical sciences.

    1st Law: The total amount of mass-energy in the universe is constant.
    2nd Law: The amount of energy available for work is running out, or entropy is increasing to a maximum.
    If the total amount of mass-energy is limited, and the amount of usable energy is decreasing, then the universe cannot have existed forever, otherwise it would already have exhausted all usable energy — the ‘heat death’ of the universe. For example, all radioactive atoms would have decayed, every part of the universe would be the same temperature, and no further work would be possible.

    So the obvious corollary is that the universe began a finite time ago with a lot of usable energy, and is now running down.

    Now, what if the questioner accepts that the universe had a beginning, but not that it needs a cause? But it is self-evident that things that begin have a cause — no-one really denies it in his heart. All science and history would collapse if this law of cause and effect were denied. So would all law enforcement, if the police didn’t think they needed to find a cause for a stabbed body or a burgled house.

    Also, the universe cannot be self-caused — nothing can create itself, because that would mean that it existed before it came into existence, which is a logical absurdity.

    For more info: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c039.html
  2. Standard memberdj2becker
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    16 May '05 10:37
    Are non of the "Muffins" going to stand up for their God?
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    16 May '05 11:00
    The opening lines of Genesis are 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth' (King James Bible), this is an ambiguous statement and does not define the word beginning. As such it is entirely possible that the word 'beginning' refers to our beginning as human beings, or the beginning of our universe, not the beginning of existence in totality. Thus it does not deny the possibility that Muffy (who exists on the superspiritual plane) came before god and that she created god prior to the point the bible begins history from. As Muffy is on the superspiritual plane, we can have no knowledge of the nature of her so it is not surprising that god did not hasten to educate our minds about her. Nothing in your post denies the possiblity that Muffy exists if we assume that the 'beggining' talked about in the bible is assumed to be a beggining of our solar system.

    Allow me to suggest a preface that might help:

    Muffy-Genesis, Chapter 1: 1. Since Muffy had always been in existence and has no end and no beginning, she grew bored. So taking a liking to the idea of finite periods of time (and yet being eternal and ever existing) Muffy made God. 2. After a nanosecond God was made and Muffy, nudging him in the shoulder said "Thou art my experiment mate, I shall proclaim you eternal and you shall lord over all these little peons you're about to make and we'll see what happens eh? But you gotta keep it to yourself" 3. And so god went out from the realm of the superspiritual and did begin things and humans did write it, getting it mostly wrong in places, and Muffy laughed and chuckled at the whole affair which lasted for no time and all time as time has no meaning to one who is eternal with no end and no beginning.[/b] Amuffin.
  4. Standard memberdj2becker
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    16 May '05 12:00
    Originally posted by Starrman
    The opening lines of Genesis are 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth' (King James Bible), this is an ambiguous statement and does not define the word beginning. As such it is entirely possible that the word 'beginning' refers to our beginning as human beings, or the beginning of our universe, not the beginning of existence in totali ...[text shortened]... all time as time has no meaning to one who is eternal with no end and no beginning. Amuffin.[/b]
    Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Is there any ambiguity in the above statement?
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    16 May '05 12:01
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

    Is there any ambiguity in the above statement?
    [/b]
    Not if you ignore Muffy, no, otherwise it is a downright blasphemous.

  6. Standard memberdj2becker
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    16 May '05 12:08
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Not if you ignore Muffy, no, otherwise it is a downright blasphemous.

    Would you mind quoting the source for Muffy-Genisis?

    Or did you just suck it out of your thumb?

    By the way, you are an atheist, correct? This means you cannot believe in Muffy.
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    16 May '05 12:15
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    By the way, you are an atheist, correct? This means you cannot believe in Muffy.
    Not necessarily, since Muffy is not technically a god but a being existing on the superspiritual plane rather than the spiritual one, theism as previously defined does not directly relate to her. Thus it is potentially possible to remain an atheist in respect to god, but believe in the existence of Muffy.
  8. Standard memberdj2becker
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    16 May '05 12:16
    Originally posted by Starrman
    The opening lines of Genesis are 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth' (King James Bible), this is an ambiguous statement and does not define the word beginning. As such it is entirely possible that the word 'beginning' refers to our beginning as human beings, or the beginning of our universe, not the beginning of existence in totali ...[text shortened]... all time as time has no meaning to one who is eternal with no end and no beginning. Amuffin.[/b]
    You are trying to demolish God by inventing Muffy. But the reason for this is because you do not believe in God. This means that you automatically cannot believe in Muffy in the first place. Are are using the typical strawman argument.

    Deuteronomy 32:39 - See now that I, even I, am he,and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

    Psalms 14:1 - The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

  9. Standard memberdj2becker
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    16 May '05 12:21
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Not necessarily, since Muffy is not technically a god but a being existing on the superspiritual plane rather than the spiritual one, theism as previously defined does not directly relate to her. Thus it is potentially possible to remain an atheist in respect to god, but believe in the existence of Muffy.
    You are saying that the proof of Muffy's existance is God. But at the same time you are saying that God does not exist. You are simply going on in a mindless contradiction.
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    16 May '05 12:30
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    You are trying to demolish God by inventing Muffy.

    No I'm not, I'm just establishing god as a first cause for the universe as we know it, besides, I am not inventing Muffy, Muffy exists outside the realm of Christian understanding, others came before me with word of Muffy. Have you seen the Muffin Man, the Muffin man, the Muffin Man?

    But the reason for this is because you do not believe in God. This means that you automatically cannot believe in Muffy in the first place.
    Are are using the typical strawman argument.


    I'm not using a strawman arguement at all, I am actually using a close relation, the wheatman arguement, which under the guidance of Muffy leads to great muffins.

    Deuteronomy 32:39 - See now that I, even I, am he,[b]and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.[/b]

    Yes, no god with him, but Muffy is above god so once again an ambiguous statement which does not deny the existence of Muffy

    Psalms 14:1 - The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

    None? Not one single atheist has ever done a good act? I find that utterly implausible. Another ambiguity or just plain wrong?
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    16 May '05 12:31
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    You are saying that the proof of Muffy's existance is God. But at the same time you are saying that God does not exist. You are simply going on in a mindless contradiction.
    I said nothing of the sort, now you are reverting to strawman tatics.
  12. Standard memberPhlabibit
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    16 May '05 12:39
    Originally posted by Starrman
    I said nothing of the sort, now you are reverting to strawman tatics.
    Sweet. Rec'd.

    ES
  13. Standard memberdj2becker
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    16 May '05 13:331 edit
    Originally posted by Starrman
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]You are trying to demolish God by inventing Muffy.


    No I'm not, I'm just establishing god as a first cause for the universe as we know it, besides, I am not inventing Muffy, Muffy exists ou ...[text shortened]... that utterly implausible. Another ambiguity or just plain wrong?[/b]
    Muffy exists outside the realm of Christian understanding

    So in other words Muffy has nothing to do with the Christian God. Thank you. That is all that I needed to hear. He is simply and invention of the Atheist to try and sooth his conscience. If he did create a god, then that god is the Atheist's God, not the Christian's God. Because clearly the atheist does not believe that the God of the Bible exists. The Atheist edifies man and makes himself God. In other words, Muffy created the Athesit.

    Thanks Starman, you make it very clear to me.
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    16 May '05 13:44
    *rotfl*
    It's done. This thread converted me. I have become a muffin!
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    16 May '05 13:49
    Originally posted by dj2becker
    [b]Muffy exists outside the realm of Christian understanding

    So in other words Muffy has nothing to do with the Christian God. Thank you. That is all that I needed to hear. He is simply and invention of the Atheist to try and sooth his conscience. If he did create a god, then that god is the Atheist's God, not the Christian's God. Because clearly ...[text shortened]... od. In other words, Muffy created the Athesit.

    Thanks Starman, you make it very clear to me.[/b]
    I'm so glad because your last post has totally confused me, lets go through it slowly and see if we can make any sense of it:

    So in other words Muffy has nothing to do with the Christian God. Thank you. That is all that I needed to hear.

    Nope, merely that Christians cannot understand Muffy, as you are very clearly demonstrating. Your god however (being a spiritual being) can have knowledge of Muffy, remember you and your god are not the same thing.

    He is simply and invention of the Atheist to try and sooth his conscience.

    Blasphemer! Muffy may have words with your god and you shall perhaps be sorely punised for such utterances. Shame on you.

    If he did create a god, then that god is the Atheist's God, not the Christian's God. Because clearly the atheist does not believe that the God of the Bible exists.

    Nor any god in fact, I am merely setting you straight as you seem to be erring from your theistic position. I believe at some point in the past you have claimed there is no such thing as an atheist, and that we are all gods children. Are you creating your own contradiction?

    The Atheist edifies man and makes himself God.

    What on earth do you mean? Atheists run around edifying all men so that they can be gods? That sounds like a very odd way of doing things and anyway, Muffy invented god, not Atheists.

    In other words, Muffy created the Athesit.

    Yes he did, a special chair for non-believers, great back support, I can reccommend it to all.
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