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Originally posted by StarrmanWell actually this debate is actually useless because you have not supplied a single shread of evidence that Muffy exists. It seems like you are just babbling on about a figment of your imagination. Do you mind giving some evidence?
I'm so glad because your last post has totally confused me, lets go through it slowly and see if we can make any sense of it:
[b]So in other words Muffy has nothing to do with the Christian God. Thank you. That is all that I needed to hear.
Nope, merely that Christians cannot understand Muffy, as you are very clearly demonstrating. Your god howe ...[text shortened]...
Yes he did, a special chair for non-believers, great back support, I can reccommend it to all.[/b]
Originally posted by dj2beckerI refer you to Telerion's post on page of the 'Analogy of Faith' thread in which you must have become familiar with the concept of Muffy and the plausibility in comparison with your god:
Well actually this debate is actually useless because you have not supplied a single shread of evidence that Muffy exists. It seems like you are just babbling on about a figment of your imagination. Do you mind giving some evidence?
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=23154&page=4
In case you do not want to bother, here is a post of relevance in answering your question:
First posted by Telerion
First off, I thought that I was clearly offering up an example. You and I both know that I don't believe in Muffy. This however is beside the point. You've claimed that the natural is evidence of the supernatural. Since you have not demonstrated how this is so, choosing rather to appeal to faith, I don't see how my "belief" in Muffy the God-maker, Lord of the super-spiritual, should be dismissed out of hand, while I am expected to entertain you and dj's faith-based claims of a supernatural.
Moreover, how can you accuse me of not being straight-forward for using a hypothetical example, and yet, in the same thread, deliberately muddle the thread with appeals to some sort of pseudo-existentialism when you and I both know you do not believe it?
Oh yeah, and like I said, the natural is evidence of a supernatural which itself is evidence of a super-spiritual.
My final evidence of Muffy: God exists.
Again how is Muffy and the super-spiritual any more ridiculous than God and the supernatural?
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Originally posted by StarrmanYou've claimed that the natural is evidence of the supernatural. Since you have not demonstrated how this is so, choosing rather to appeal to faith, I don't see how my "belief" in Muffy the God-maker, Lord of the super-spiritual, should be dismissed out of hand, while I am expected to entertain you and dj's faith-based claims of a supernatural.
I refer you to Telerion's post on page of the 'Analogy of Faith' thread in which you must have become familiar with the concept of Muffy and the plausibility in comparison with your god:
http://www.redhotpawn.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=23154&page=4
In case you do not want to bother, here is a post of relevance in answering your question:
...[text shortened]... gain how is Muffy and the super-spiritual any more ridiculous than God and the supernatural?[/i]
Maybe if you read the first post that I posted you will see that I responded to this:
Here is the reasoning:
Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
The universe has a beginning.
Therefore the universe has a cause.
The universe requires a cause because it had a beginning. God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, Einstein’s general relativity, which has much experimental support, shows that time is linked to matter and space. So time itself would have begun along with matter and space.
Since God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time — God is ‘the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity’ (Isaiah 57:15). Therefore He doesn’t have a cause.
Originally posted by dj2beckernope dj ,,in the case of "muffy" YOU are the sceptic. and you have no proof it isn't true , save for the scientific view of the universe that requires no "creator".
A number of skeptics have said that Muffy created God. But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the statement ‘Muffy created God’ is illogical, just like ‘The bachelor is married!’
So a more sophisticated questioner might ask: ‘If the universe needs a cause, then why doesn’t God need a cause? And if God doesn’t need a cause, w ...[text shortened]... ch is a logical absurdity.
For more info: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c039.html
None of your so-called reasoning can be applied in muffys case.
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Originally posted by frogstompI am afraid you are mistaken. The skeptic says that Muffy created God.
nope dj ,,in the case of "muffy" YOU are the sceptic. and you have no proof it isn't true , save for the scientific view of the universe that requires no "creator".
None of your so-called reasoning can be applied in muffys case.
Originally posted by dj2becker
God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause.
As I have said already, Muffy made god, he may not have told anyone about it, but it still happened. Your reasoning is relevant only to your god and only in the blasphemous claim that Muffy does not exist.
Originally posted by frogstompAnyone got Muffy’s number. She sounds terrific. Did she sleep her way to the top?
nope dj ,,in the case of "muffy" YOU are the sceptic. and you have no proof it isn't true , save for the scientific view of the universe that requires no "creator".
None of your so-called reasoning can be applied in muffys case.
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Originally posted by StarrmanAs I have said already, Muffy made god, he may not have told anyone about it, but it still happened.
Originally posted by dj2becker
[b] God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause.
As I have said already, Muffy made god, he may not have told anyone about it, but it still happened. Your reasoning is relevant only to your god and only in the blasphemous claim that Muffy does not exist.
[/b]
Do you the slightest shread of evidence to base this claim upon other than your imagination? You speak as if it were a fact. I suppose you then have proof of your statement? As far as I gather the only evidence you have is the existance of God. So would you mind explaining why Muffy would create God if He has no beginnig?
Originally posted by dj2beckerEvidence, shmevidence. It’s all about faith.
[b]As I have said already, Muffy made god, he may not have told anyone about it, but it still happened.
Do you the slightest shread of evidence to base this claim upon other than your imagination? You speak as if it were a fact. I suppose you then have proof of your statement? As far as I gather the only evidence you have is the existance of God. So would you mind explaining why Muffy would create God if He has no beginnig?[/b]
ES
Originally posted by dj2beckerDo you have the slightest shread of evidence to base the claim that god doesn't have a beginning upon? You keep saying it's "by definition", but the fact that it is possible to define something or someone as having no beginning doesn't mean it/he/she actually exists or has this specific attribute.
Do you the slightest shread of evidence to base this claim upon other than your imagination?
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Originally posted by NordlysI sure do. I have God's word.
Do you have the slightest shread of evidence to base the claim that god doesn't have a beginning upon? You keep saying it's "by definition", but the fact that it is possible to define something or someone as having no beginning doesn't mean it/he/she actually exists or has this specific attribute.
Revelation 1:8 - I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
I just try to get a little shut eye, and I wake up to find this blasphemous bologna!
How can you still be so confused about Muffy?
A number of skeptics have said that Muffy created God. But God by definition is the uncreated creator of the universe, so the statement ‘Muffy created God’ is illogical, just like ‘The bachelor is married!’
No, by definition, God is a mediocre, underachieving deity, created by Muffy. Muffy by definition is the creator of God, so saying that God is the "uncreated Creator" is illogical, just like saying, "The bachelor is married!"
You seem to have a hard time grasping the super-spiritual. All the things you say about God are true in the natural sense. God has no beginning in the natural. He is "uncreated" in this way. However God is bounded by the supernatural. This is the dimension in which God resides. Muffy resides throughout and beyond the supernatural dimension.
Everything which has a beginning has a cause.
The universe has a beginning.
Therefore the universe has a cause.
Kalam's Cosmological Argument. Where's Bbar? He'd have a field day with this one.
Thank you dj2 for all the argument about the universe having a beginning. In the future, however, I encourage you to save your wrist the stress of all that copy and paste.
You see I have no objection to Kalam's Cosmological Argument as a Muffin. This argument is excellent support for Muffy!
Muffy is the cause of the natural. Your underachieving idol made this particular universe in which we reside which is just a subset of the natural. If it helps you to understand, you can think of it like God made a sandcastle, while Muffy made the beach. So yes our particular universe (outer space) has a cause (God). The Universe meaning "the entirety of the natural of which our universe is a subset" also has a cause (Muffy).
God, unlike the universe, had no beginning, so doesn’t need a cause. In addition, . . . [s]ince God, by definition, is the creator of the whole universe, he is the creator of time. Therefore He is not limited by the time dimension He created, so has no beginning in time
I've gone over this before with you. Time, as you point out here, is a property of the natural world. Your deity has no beginning in time, because he has no beginning in the natural world. Time however is not the only dimension in which something can have a beginning. Even in the natural this is true. Consider that a road can have a beginning without specifying a time. A book can also have a beginning in the same way.
While your god, God, has no beginning in time, your god has a beginning in spiritual dimensions, just like a book has a beginning in natural dimensions.
Since everything that has a beginning has a cause by Kalam's Cosmological Argument, your god, which has beginning, also has a cause: Muffy.
Originally posted by StarrmanWisdom from Brother Star.
The opening lines of Genesis are 'In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth' (King James Bible), this is an ambiguous statement and does not define the word beginning. As such it is entirely possible that the word 'beginning' refers to our beginning as human beings, or the beginning of our universe, not the beginning of existence in totali ...[text shortened]... all time as time has no meaning to one who is eternal with no end and no beginning. Amuffin.[/b]