In the The God Who Hates thread this morning (my time in Greece) KellyJay asked me to tell him why I think The doctrine of eternal suffering is wrong. Obviously I’m a little surprised that question as it’s been one of the most discussed topics in this forum in the last several years and I would have thought my position on this is quite clear. But I’ll lay it out once again and see if anyone wants to contest me on it.
1) Moral abhorrence: supernaturally keeping people in existence in order to burn them alive for all eternity is morally abhorrent no matter what the person has done, let alone for refusing to or being unable to believe in a God who incidentally says he loves you so much despite the torture.
2) Hypocrisy and bullying: torturing people because they don’t believe in you as a god is religious terrorism of the highest order. It is worse than all of the religious and ethnic crimes of the entire world put together. It makes Islamic terrorism, beheadings and the like, look like child’s play. It makes the burning alive of the American pilot look like a blessed relief until the poor bastard met the heller’s version of Jesus once he got to the pearly gates.
3) Gospel incoherence: John 3:16 “For God (Jesus) SO...loved the (entire) world, that he gave his only son so that whosoever believes in him will have everlasting life.” The hellers split the hairs over this calling out “whosoever” as the differentiator and completely miss the point that differentiator or not... the god who loved me will now burn me alive for eternity out of HIS choice! It’s does not make sense on any level.
4) Scriptural literalism: every description of hell and eternal suffering in the bible is parabolic, metaphorical, visionary/dream-state. The hellers ignore this and CHOOSE to take it as being literal despite ignoring all the other crazy dream-state things in the bible such as whores riding multi-headed beasts while drinking cups of Christian blood. You CHOOSE to accept this aberration of eternal suffering as being literal.
5) Unnecessary for salvation: I often ask sonship things like “if I reject your version of the Trinity will I be precluded from being filled with the spirit of Christ and subsequently from salvation?” He refuses to answer because his vanity won’t allow him to admit that his precious doctrines are really not that important when it comes to Jesus Christ. Same with eternal suffering IT IS NOT NECESSARY FOR SALVATION, so who cares? Why defend it, why not abandon it and give the mercy of God a chance you bunch of fire-breathing hell-mongers?
6) Slander of Christ : other that the general irrationality of faith itself, the propagation of eternal torture is without doubt the biggest turn off for most non-Christians, non theists. It is a horrible thing to say of our Lord and a sleight on his perfect nature and loving merciful disposition. And no matter how many times you quote “it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living god” ... doesn’t make burning people in hell for eternity morally acceptable, scripturally sound nor gospel coherent.
7) It is a belief that bad for you spiritually: to harbour these beliefs is bad for you. To believe that it is “God’s perfect justice” and that “the lost (the billions of lost people) will glorify Jesus in their endless woe” has to be two of the most disgraceful things I’ve ever heard a Christian utter.
Christ died for the world, for the people of the world, he did this once and for ALL and while we were still sinners. He did this because of the love he has for every single person on this planet who ever has and who ever will live, even pre-birth.
What happens to the non-“whosoevers” after this is irrelevant, but it won’t be Jesus in hell supervising their eternal torture that is for sure.
I hope I’ve now made myself clear to you on this matter KellyJay?
Originally posted by @divegeesterAnyone who twists the bible to such an extent that they conclude that people are tortured for all eternity is truly a sick person. The bible contains weeping, gnashing of teeth, pain and suffering for evil people and eventual destruction. It does not state eternal torture for people. Eternal torture is reserved for three beings, the Beast, The False Prophet and Satan.
In the The God Who Hates thread this morning (my time in Greece) KellyJay asked me to tell him why I think The doctrine of eternal suffering is wrong. Obviously I’m a little surprised that question as it’s been one of the most discussed topics in this forum in the last several years and I would have thought my position on this is quite clear. But I’ll l ...[text shortened]... torture that is for sure.
I hope I’ve now made myself clear to you on this matter KellyJay?
Originally posted by @rajk999And those "who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
It [the Bible] does not state eternal torture for people. Eternal torture is reserved for three beings, the Beast, The False Prophet and Satan.
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." -- Revelation 14:11, KJV
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Originally posted by @divegeesterAnd yet, there exists the belief in eternal pain and suffering at the hands of God. Why? We can build a list of reasons:
In the The God Who Hates thread this morning (my time in Greece) KellyJay asked me to tell him why I think The doctrine of eternal suffering is wrong. Obviously I’m a little surprised that question as it’s been one of the most discussed topics in this forum in the last several years and I would have thought my position on this is quite clear. But I’ll l ...[text shortened]... torture that is for sure.
I hope I’ve now made myself clear to you on this matter KellyJay?
1. The need for cosmic justice, to counter the notion that bad guys can get away with terrible acts.
2 The need for a completely reliable, undoubtable source of truth, even when that source of truth speaks of the eternal punishment being real.
3. Justification for torture by humans on humans, in the pursuit of noble goals.
4. An explanation for natural disasters as instances of God’s wrath upon his creatures and warnings that He is indeed capable of wreaking further terrible vengeance for transgressions. The God of the OT is still God.
5. A justification of the withholding of familial merciful love; a justification of patriarchal human rule, as modeled on a divine, stern father figure.
6. A model for the unlimited scope of control by a state over its subjects that incorporates theocratic principles into its founding documents.
7. A justifying example of having “everything on the table” in international crises.
8. Fear of the unknown chaos that would come if this underpinning of western civilization was pulled out.
Originally posted by @suzianneYes we all know the scriptures suzianne and that you yourself don’t believe in eternal suffering.
And those "who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
"And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name." -- Revelation 14:11, KJV
And yet here you are, not agreeing with my thought-through attempt to explain why it’s wrong, but quoting one of the scriptures to support your buddies rather me whom you don’t like.
Nice one...
Originally posted by @divegeesterIts the reason why Paul told women to shut up. They are irrational and driven by emotion and unnatural loyalties. Its the reason why a mother will look at her murderous son and proclaim that his is a good boy, just misunderstood.
Yes we all know the scriptures suzianne and that you yourself don’t believe in eternal suffering.
And yet here you are, not agreeing with my thought-through attempt to explain why it’s wrong, but quoting one of the scriptures to support your buddies rather me whom you don’t like.
Nice one...
Originally posted by @divegeesterWell at least you are attempting to go direct to the question, but why not use scripture to
In the The God Who Hates thread this morning (my time in Greece) KellyJay asked me to tell him why I think The doctrine of eternal suffering is wrong. Obviously I’m a little surprised that question as it’s been one of the most discussed topics in this forum in the last several years and I would have thought my position on this is quite clear. But I’ll l ...[text shortened]... torture that is for sure.
I hope I’ve now made myself clear to you on this matter KellyJay?
defend your view about scripture instead of judging scripture by what you think about it?
Originally posted by @rajk999Why just them and why is that OK?
Anyone who twists the bible to such an extent that they conclude that people are tortured for all eternity is truly a sick person. The bible contains weeping, gnashing of teeth, pain and suffering for evil people and eventual destruction. It does not state eternal torture for people. Eternal torture is reserved for three beings, the Beast, The False Prophet and Satan.
Hmm?
Originally posted by @rajk999Suzy................he's all yours baby!
Its the reason why Paul told women to shut up. They are irrational and driven by emotion and unnatural loyalties. Its the reason why a mother will look at her murderous son and proclaim that his is a good boy, just misunderstood.
I'll just kindly step aside and enjoy the fireworks and munch on some popcorn.
Thanks in advance.
Originally posted by @divegeesterNot everyone has all the answers like you Dive.
“Attempting”. Could I be any more direct?
I note that you have no answers whatsoever.
Originally posted by @divegeesterNone that matters if is between your views and what is actually written, I will go with the Word.
“Attempting”. Could I be any more direct?
I note that you have no answers whatsoever.
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Originally posted by @divegeesterThese would all be good arguments if God were simply another human being. If God were to decide that something is right who are we to disagree? Do you think your arguments could change His mind if He were to decide that eternal torture were just punishment?
In the The God Who Hates thread this morning (my time in Greece) KellyJay asked me to tell him why I think The doctrine of eternal suffering is wrong. Obviously I’m a little surprised that question as it’s been one of the most discussed topics in this forum in the last several years and I would have thought my position on this is quite clear. But I’ll l ...[text shortened]... torture that is for sure.
I hope I’ve now made myself clear to you on this matter KellyJay?
Originally posted by @divegeesterVery well, thought out OP.
In the The God Who Hates thread this morning (my time in Greece) KellyJay asked me to tell him why I think The doctrine of eternal suffering is wrong. Obviously I’m a little surprised that question as it’s been one of the most discussed topics in this forum in the last several years and I would have thought my position on this is quite clear. But I’ll l ...[text shortened]... torture that is for sure.
I hope I’ve now made myself clear to you on this matter KellyJay?
I agree 100%.
There's NO way that Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified, just to send millions to an eternal hell. The parts of the Bible that may speak about this are wrong and/or interpreted incorrectly.
Again: the beating and crucifixion of Jesus was too big of an event to have such an awful outcome.
Originally posted by @chaney3What He went through was so that He could become sin for our salvation, what He went through was what it took to save us. If the Son of God had to suffer so that we can saved what do you think is going to happen to those without His grace when they die in their sins, waisting His grace? When He says “Depart from me...”
Very well, thought out OP.
I agree 100%.
There's NO way that Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified, just to send millions to an eternal hell. The parts of the Bible that may speak about this are wrong and/or interpreted incorrectly.
Again: the beating and crucifixion of Jesus was too big of an event to have such an awful outcome.