Witness Lee and the Lord's Recovery Movement

One of the differences between these eager accusers and Witness Lee is this -

Witness Lee taught what he taught in order to render HELP and remedy to his brothers and sisters in Christ.

The accusers and fake cult fighters here have no interest in rendering anyone any help. They just delight to harp on negativity.

@sonship said
The accusers and fake cult fighters here have no interest in rendering anyone any help. They just delight to harp on negativity.

The profound misanthropy in play here is yours.

@fmf said
The profound misanthropy in play here is yours.

Oh good. The guest panelist for Dive's Litterbox Tribunal has arrived.

Now let me return to the parable of the mustard seed (Matt. 13:32,33) . Because when I first heard it interpreted negatively, I wasn't too keen on that understanding. I mean I always thought that the little mustard seed growing into giant tree was a great positive sign of the encrease Christianity.

And for a few years I thought I had good biblical support. I will explain how I changed my mind and decided - "No, the parable must be showing damage to God's purpose rather then positive growth of it."

I'll explain why I changed my opinion. It took a couple of years.

@sonship said
Now let me return to the parable of the mustard seed (Matt. 13:32,33) . Because when I first heard it interpreted negatively, I wasn't too keen on that understanding. I mean I always thought that the little mustard seed growing into giant tree was a great positive sign of the encrease Christianity.

And for a few years I thought I had good biblical support. I will e ...[text shortened]... n positive growth of it." [/i]

I'll explain why I changed my opinion. It took a couple of years.

Was it because the Jews were not allowed to have ham sandwiches, and therefore the mustard would have gone to waste?

"anther parable He set before them, saying, The kingdom of the heavens is like a mustard seed, which a man took and sowed in his field.

And which is smaller than all the seeds; but when it has brown, it is greater than the herbs and becomes a tree, so that the birds of heaven come and roost in its branches."

This saying reminded me of two passage sections in the Old Testament. One involves Egypt and the other involves Babylon. In both similar Old Testament sayings Pharoah's Egypt or Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon were likened to great trees. And the beasts or the birds took shelter in the shadow of the trees.

I thought to myself "Isn't it a great thing those that Christianity has become so big and so world wide that it provides such refuge and comfort to the world's people?"

For years I harbored this kind of doubt when I heard Witness Lee expound on the parable of the mustard seed. Then one day with a little more spiritual experience and a little more spiritual sight I realized -

"But wait. God's purpose was with the land of Israel. His central intention in the Old Testament was with Israel in the Good Land and not with Pharoah's Egypt or Nebuchadnezzar's Babylon. "

They may have become great sprawling world wide powers. But His original intention was with the Good Land where the holy city Jerusalem was with its temple. Egypt was a temporary distraction from God's original goal. And Babylon was another distraction and sidetracking and captivity of God's people from God's original goal.

From that time I agreed with Brother Lee that the mustard seed growing into a giant tree was not a positive thing but a negative one. The church was never to be deeply ROOTED in the world. It should be pilgrim body passing through going unto Christ's second coming. It was not to be deeply entrenched in the politics of the world.

The mutation of the seed to a tree where the birds lodged in its branches I finally realized is better understood as like the other parable of the leavened bread. Corruption had furnished ground for the enemy of God to attempt to change the nature church.

@caesar-salad

Was it because the Jews were not allowed to have ham sandwiches, and therefore the mustard would have gone to waste?

No. here we go.

The church, which is the embodiment of the kingdom, should be like an herb that produces food. However, its nature and function were changed, so that it became a "tree," a lodging place for birds. (This is against the law of God's creation, that is, that every plant must be after its kind - Gen 1:11-12.)

Footnote from the Recovery Version on Matthew 13:32.

This change happened in the first part of the fourth century, when Constantine the Great mixed the church with the world. This Roman emperor brought thousands of false believers into the Christianity., making it Christiandom, no longer the church.

Behind the scenes in the spiritual realm utilizing Constantine's seemingly wise social move was Satan's scheme to destroy the church from the inside. Persecution from without had failed Satan. Persecution could not destroy Christ's church.

Satan then altered his tactic to WELCOME the church to the world, his empire, where he could MIX the church with his unbelievers.

The mustard seed is an annual herb plant. The tree is a perennial plant. According to its heavenly and spiritual nature the church should be like a mustard plant, sojourning on the earth.

Satan caused it to change in nature to be a deeply rooted in the world system closely related to politics. Like a tree it settled in the earth and lost almost lost its nature of a pilgrim entity.

Being now deeply rooted in the world many evil persons and unbelieving persons flourished in its branches. It became a great world wide enterprise as a lodging place for great hypocrisy, great evils, corruptions and godless schemes.

The need of recovery of the nature of the church is a necessity in city after city where saints must come back to the reality of the spiritual and heavenly nature of the church.

@sonship said
@divegeester

sand sand, sand sand,
saaaaand .... wonderful sand.

contempt, contempt, contempt, contempt,
Wonderful goofy contempt.

But No effective rebuttal.
But No proof of "other churches" or "Satan's [plural] organizations" provided.

This thread is a total train wreck for you sonship; the only reason you’re still posting in it is to bury the evidence.

@divegeester

Evidence never presented doesn't need burying.

"other churches" = "organizations [plural] of Satan"

Dig it up.

@sonship said
@divegeester

Evidence never presented doesn't need burying.

"other churches" = "organizations of Satan"

Dig it up.

You were referring to the whole of Protestantism and Catholicism, were you not?

Is it wrong to refer to them as "other" churches in the context of your contention that YOUR cult/group/church is not an organization of "Satan"?

Copied from https://www.lctestimony.org/ResponseToOpenLetter.html#legitimacy

“On the Legitimacy of Evangelical Churches
and Denominations”

We believe, as do most Christians, that the Body of Christ is uniquely and universally one (1 Cor. 1:12-13; Eph. 4:4; Col. 3:15). We also believe that the Lord’s desire is for the practical local expression of His Body to be locally one. In fact, the divine oneness of His believers practically is among the things He died to accomplish
(John 17:21; Eph. 2:14-15). The implication of this basic understanding is far reaching. It means that we must receive all genuine believers in the common fellowship of the Body of Christ (Rom. 15:7; 1 Cor. 1:9).

Romans 15:7 is very important to the nature of a local church. In principle it must receive all whom Christ has received. The very word church stands against the thought of divisions and denominated believers according to something other then where they live.

I wrote above that if any church I participated in made the reading of books by Witness Lee a requirement of being received, I would not recognize that gathering as true local church. There is a need for repentance and recovery in that case.

For Paul's instruction is to receive as brothers and sisters all those whom we can discern have been received by Christ Himself. And that is all kinds of believers.

"Therefore receive one another, as Christ also received you to the glory of God." (Rom. 15;7)

Take the creator of the critical video, Brent Barber. Now, all the local churches I have ever met with would receive this man IF he wants to be received. He may not like messages by Witness Lee. But if he belongs to the Lord, to cut him off is to cut off ourselves. He is a member of the Body of Christ.

Now if Brent Barber doesn't want to participate in the oneness on the local ground for some reason, he has the freedom of conscience to not meet on that ground. He may choose a denominational ground.

The fault of division is not on the local church. The preference to meet in division is Brent's decision.

The Lord said where ever two or three are gathered into His name, there He is in the midst. So the gracious Lord is faithful to give His presence where ever Christians meet in His name.

However the Lord did not say that every gathering of two or three is a church. Otherwise Jerusalem, where they gathered from house to house in probably hundreds of homes in that locality would have had hundreds of churches.

You can never find the mention of churches [plural] in Jerusalem in the New Testament. You can never find the mention of more than one church in ANY locality in the New Testament.

Having said that, neither should Brent make an issue of saints on the local ground who DO feel enthusiastic about following the ministry of Lee and Nee. Both kinds of saints should mature and be accepting of each other in love. He cannot say Christ has not received them who like Lee's books. They cannot say Christ has not received Brent who has become suspicious of those books.

Paul was a prominent servant of God. He wrote his Corinthian letter to all those believers in Corinth. But those in the area were included if they too felt the need to receive his labors. But he established the local church.

"Paul, a called apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Sosthenes the brother.

To the church of God which is in Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, the called saints, with all those who call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, who is theirs and ours. " (1 Cor. 1:1,2)

Compare to the salutation of Second Corinthians.

"Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy the brother, to the church of God which is in Corinth, with all the saints who are in the whole of Achaia. " (2 Cor. 2:1)

Of course by reading the First and Second Corinthian letter, one could surmise that in some cases better Christians could have been elsewhere in some other place in the region of Achaia.

Why he even indicated that among the Corinthian believers it would be manifested that some were approved of the Lord Spirit more than others pertaining to their spiritual lives.

"For first of all, when you come together in the church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and some part of it I believe. For there must even be parties among you, that those who are approved may become manifest among you." (1 Cor. 11:18,19)

continued with "“On the Legitimacy of Evangelical Churches
and Denominations”
https://www.lctestimony.org/ResponseToOpenLetter.html#legitimacy

It also means that we must strive to keep the oneness of the Spirit (Eph. 4:3) and avoid division (1 Cor. 1:10-13; 12:24-25). To maintain and testify of the oneness of the church as Christ’s Body, we cannot in good conscience participate in organizations that contribute to division in the Body of Christ. We believe that the present divided condition of the Body of Christ is a cause of grieving to our Lord and Savior. For that reason, in order to be pleasing to the Lord, we cannot agree with the present denominational system. But we hope that everyone will be absolutely clear that our disagreement with denominationalism does not in any way constitute a rejection of the believers within that system, nor does it call into question the validity of their salvation or their full participation in the eternal destiny of all God’s redeemed—the hope of glory in Christ. This represents the clear teaching of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee on these points, and we believe that this is in complete harmony with Scripture. It is our aspiration to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace, and whenever we fall short, we look to the Lord for mercy and grace that He may bring us into a walk that is well-pleasing to Him.

The local churches do not participate in any “associations of evangelical churches and ministries,” as the open letter charges. Further, Living Stream Ministry is a member of a few evangelical trade organizations, such as the Evangelical Christian Publishers Association (ECPA), which is in a different category of organizations from what the open letter describes. According to their website, ECPA is a trade organization, serving an industry; it is not an association of churches and ministries. Before joining ECPA, Living Stream Ministry evaluated the Statement of Faith to which it was asked to subscribe and found no conflict with the teachings of the local churches, the ministry of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, or most importantly, the Bible. Furthermore, ECPA conducted an extensive review of the theology of the books published by Living Stream Ministry, found no conflict with their Statement of Faith, and elected to accept Living Stream Ministry into membership of the association. ECPA was also fully apprised of our litigation against Harvest House. In fact, several of the leaders of ECPA attempted to bring the two parties together, in accordance with Matthew 18, to try to resolve the conflict. Consistent with their posture from the outset, Harvest House steadfastly refused such a meeting.

Conclusion
The open letter of evangelical leaders presents Witness Lee’s statements without the biblical texts on which they are based, without his exposition of those texts, and without any balancing context found in his writings. Therefore, they do not fairly present his teaching on these important points of truth. We commend the signers of the open letter for their concern for the truth of the gospel, and we invite them or any others to join us in genuine and substantive dialogue concerning the great truths of the faith and particularly our understanding thereof. However, we would hope that in such dialogue their treatment of us would be according to how they themselves would like others to treat them, which is, by our Lord’s teaching, the second great commandment (Matt. 7:12; 22:39). Unless our understanding of Scripture can be demonstrated to be in error, we would consider ourselves unfaithful to disavow any point of truth that the Lord has shown us from His Word.

Respectfully submitted by various brothers representing the local churches
and by the editorial section of Living Stream Ministry
Lord’s Day, February 11, 2007

I had never heard of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee before this forum, but it has been interesting to learn a little about them.