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Originally posted by KellyJayUnconfessed sin in a believer's life is the cause of loss of fellowship (I John 1:9 has been provided for the restoration of fellowship). Overt and covert sin in an unbeliever's life is not the issue in salvation. Christ paid the price of sin for the entire human race during His substitutionary spiritual death; during the final three hours of His crucifixion God the Father poured out [imputed, a judicial imputation] all personal sins to Christ and judged them. His Justice and Righteousness (Divine Integrity) was propitiated or satisfied with this payment. The only issue for an unbeliever is faith alone in Christ alone. (Pg 6)
The crime is sin, the forgiveness is where belief is found. You have it a$$
backwards when it comes to why people are going to be condemned, they
are going to be condemn for what they did and didn't do. They miss the
forgiveness offered through lack of belief.
Belief leads to forgiveness, sin leads to condemnation and death.
Kelly
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten [uniquely born] Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name [person] of the only begotten [uniquely born] Son of God." (John 3:16-18)
Hey, GB, same question for you:
Say you die and go to heaven. And you meet God. And God tells you about people like me and googlefudge and stellspalfie. How we are atheists, and frequently "ridicule" theists, have never believed in god eventhough people like you have told us about god and such.
And god says to you: "GB, if it were up to me, I would toss these guys in hell for all eternity and you and me and the rest of the righteous people who are now in heaven will have a wonderful time in eternity. But you know what, because you've lived such a good and wholesome life I'm going to let you decide. Toss them in hell, or keep them here with the rest of us. Your choice, old friend."
What do you choose?
I'd also like other religious people who believe that some people (atheists or Hitlers or whatever) will be send to hell by god to answer.
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Originally posted by wolfgang59um, no...
In a way I wish there was a god because surely he would toss all these
sanctimonious Christians into the eternal lake of fire.
(Sure like to see the look on Ron's face as he splashes around there!)
If there was a god then it could give them a good talking too, and tell them not
to be so dim as to believe in things based on faith, and to embrace secular morality.
But nobody deserves eternal torture.
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Originally posted by Great King RatI suspect he was probably joking too.
I would hope and think that Wolfie was joking. And I suspect the same with regards to RJHinds' answer but I can't be sure about that, especially keeping in mind mr. Hinds' history.
but I wouldn't hesitate to jump on a theist saying the reverse, and I endeavour not to be hypocritical.
If I oppose conduct by my opponents I would be remiss not to oppose it by my allies.
Originally posted by Great King RatOriginally posted by Great King Rat
Hey, GB, same question for you:
Say you die and go to heaven. And you meet God. And God tells you about people like me and googlefudge and stellspalfie. How we are atheists, and frequently "ridicule" theists, have never believed in god eventhough people like you have told us about god and such.
And god says to you: "GB, if it were up to me, I w ...[text shortened]... elieve that some people (atheists or Hitlers or whatever) will be send to hell by god to answer.
"Here is my question again, GB. One question, asked in various ways:
So, GB, when you are in heaven, will you be totally at peace knowing there are billions of people (people like me) suffering in agonizing pain for all eternity? Will you be ok with that? [In human terms, no; not even contemplating the prospect. In heaven, however, He will wash away all tears (by application, there will be no further memory of those we knew on earth who chose to reject the Risen Christ and His work of substitutionary spiritual death on their behalf). We will be in new permanent bodies designed for happiness. The only excruciating pain in eternity occurs non-stop in the Lake of Fire.]
Billions of people will go to hell for not believing. Will you be ok with that? [Horrible prospect to contemplate but no one can change the decisions of their own free will.] These people don't take the word of a random forum contributor as any kind of evidence. Because of this, they will suffer for all eternity. Will you be fine with that? [My words are not the issue; rejection of the relevant biblical passages presented self induce their present uncertainty and are the basis of their eternal suffering. The issue isn't personal sin but the unpardonable sin of rejecting God's provision of salvation by faith alone in Christ alone.]
Will you be fine with these people burning in hell forever, because they don't believe? Will you be completely at peace and happy forever and ever, while knowing there are fairly good people like me screaming and crying for all eternity? If you saw god passing by, would you not ask him, "Say God, GKR has been burning in hell for 20,000 years, don't you agree that's he's learnt his lesson?" [Answered in the paragraphs above. God knows I have prayed that Great King Rat will reconsider the claims of Christ while there's still time. I've put the matter in His hands and, having done so, am at peace.] (Page 6)
Originally posted by googlefudge
While I also think your beliefs are nuts. And offensive.
I don't lump all theists (or Christians) together.
So when I talk about people believing in eternal torture in hell, it's when I
am talking to someone who says that's what they believe.
When I talk to you, I talk about what you believe... And when I don't know
I ask and/or you correct ...[text shortened]... is just another fictional character from a collection of bad stories.
Voldermort was scarier.
I don't lump all theists (or Christians) together.
So when I talk about people believing in eternal torture in hell, it's when I
am talking to someone who says that's what they believe.
When I talk to you, I talk about what you believe... And when I don't know
I ask and/or you correct me for getting it wrong.
So why do you lump yourself in with theists who believe in eternal torture
by assuming we are talking about your beliefs as well rather than just theirs?
And the fact that he continues to act like I am fooling myself, or I am afraid of hell andI apologize for my reply. I do not know what possessed me to think you were talking to me. Mea culpa. I'm sorry.
trying to rationalise... or any of that nonsense.
He is denying my own statements to the contrary, calling me a liar to boot, and
is completely failing to understand my position.
I would hope that while we disagree... I don't misunderstand your position in the same way.
Originally posted by googlefudgeYour opinion is what you're talking about?
When I say my morality is superior to yours.
This is what I am talking about.
Sorry if I do not share that opinion.
Just saying that all capital punishment is murder does not make it so.
Yet you base your morality on your belief, just as I do. I do not see one as 'superior' to the other. Sounds like more vanity to me.
Originally posted by sonhouseI wish you could talk to someone who has had a 'near-death experience'. These people know that faith (and love) IS all you need. There's that word again, 'need'. A LOT of people seem to have a different definition of it than I do, because they sure seem to 'need' a lot more.
When all you have is faith, you think you don't need proof. All you have is faith and nothing more. Faith will not get you into ANYTHING. All it does is shore up your ego/mind till you reach that big divide when you die.
I suppose that can be a good thing, shoring up a person's fears.
Originally posted by RJHindsExcuse me for being blunt, but... Shut up, Ron.
You and googlefudge have warped minds. It is liberal people like you that continue to cause our society to be all screwed up.
The world needs more liberal people, not less.
The only thing 'screwing up' our society is greed and selfishness.
Originally posted by stellspalfie
twisted? really, in what way is it twisted. I believe people should be rehabilitated, fixed. killing people as a form of punishment is barbaric. its the opposite to twisted, its moral.
yes the sin = death. pretty fkng vague though isn't it? is that all sins? or does it depend on which sin? each Christian has a different opinion on what is a sin, you ...[text shortened]... at was the point if people still sin now? if he removed it why are we being judged for our sins?
yes the sin = death. pretty fkng vague though isn't it? is that all sins? or does it depend on which sin? each Christian has a different opinion on what is a sin, you think your man would be a little bit more clearer with his rules considering what's at stake.All this is in the Bible, man. Yes, all sins. No, it doesn't depend on which sin. All sin will get you in trouble, there is no 'safe sin'. The good news is that Christ came to redeem the believer from sin.
I still don't 'get' Christ removing all sin. can you explain it? did he remove all sin for all time? or just the sin up to the point he died? what was the point if people still sin now? if he removed it why are we being judged for our sins?Yes, He removed all sin for all time, but man is so entrenched in sin, he may find himself sinning again because he is weak. God knows this, and this is one reason for Catholic 'confession', to repent for recent sins. Christ, being without sin, can bridge the gap between sinful man and sinless God because he took our sins upon Himself. The point is repentance. We must repent for recent sins. We cannot go unrepentant and still expect to be clean enough to meet God. We are as children to God, our Father. As long as He knows in our hearts that we are truly sorry for our sins and that we strive to not err again, His heart is softened toward us, His children, just as human fathers react to their misbehaving children. As to your last question, I believe that each person needs to accept Christ as their Savior and repent and be honest with God as to their motivations in their hearts. Only then can Christ's sacrifice on the cross protect us and lift our burden of sin from us. Then we are gifted with the Holy Spirit which helps to prevent any further sin. Many are weak and do manage to acquire further sin, but if we truly repent, we are spared. Repentance is more than just "I'm sorry", even if you mean it. It also means taking steps to see that it doesn't happen again. It is no doubt a good thing that God is patient with us, as long as we keep Him in our hearts, and not just our minds. God can indeed read our hearts and He cannot be fooled. It is unrepentant sin that will trip us up, if anything does.
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These people know that faith (and love) IS all you need.
Sigh. . . . I apologise on behalf of all theists for this statement, faith and love is NOT all you need and this type of thinking is a reflection of a Christianity that has lost its way, what Jesus actually advocated was taking in knowledge,
This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you and of the one whom you sent forth Jesus Christ, John chapter 17 verse 3.
Read your Bibles daily people!