Youngest age to burn in hell?

Originally posted by sonhouse
So prove it. Show me heaven. Show me hell. Call on your god to explain it to us non believers.

I think we should do good works because we are human and can SEE when someone is in trouble. I don't need to keep referring to a god figure to see the obvious.

One small example from my own life: My family and I were on vacation in Canada and came across a C ...[text shortened]... uld view all such deeds. It just needs to be done and not even thinking of some heavenly reward.

I think you have a rather small idea of most Christians. Granted, some of them are so full of themselves that I can't stand talking to them for more than five minutes. But I do not think that most stand around all the time thinking "wow, I can't wait to be rewarded and to watch all these poor slobs burn".

A LOT of humans are like the ones in your post. 9 out of 10 people will do nothing and just stand around when someone is in trouble, and not just Christians, as you seem to imply. It seems to be a rare thing to overcome the inertia and DO something in these cases. I'm sure that some of them have been Christians, too. It's something that encompasses ALL humans.

I think you're right. 'Good works' are done by a lot of humans, not just Christians or even just the religious. But lots of people who are otherwise 'good people' who regularly do 'good works' will still be found lacking at Judgement, if they do not believe in God and accept his offer of forgiveness for sins. It's this business of being 'unrepentant' about one's sins that convicts them.

And if you're waiting for proof before you believe, that is for sure a losing proposition. You won't get the proof you seek until you have faith. If you never have faith, then you will receive your proof at Judgement, but then it's too late. It has to be YOUR decision to believe, not to believe AFTER seeing proof. That's not true belief, it's just acknowledgement.

Originally posted by googlefudge
And that's a bad thing?

What's so great about NEEDING a saviour?

There's nothing "great" about it.

But Man is in sin. God cannot abide sin. So before the gap is bridged, the sin needs to be removed. Enter the Savior.

Originally posted by googlefudge
You are delusional.

You can't comprehend that I really don't believe that gods exist.

I don't need, and am not making up excuses to not want god.

I am simply pointing out how unbelievably stupid your beliefs are.

I have nothing I need to be saved from.

And I would want nothing whatsoever to do with your god if it
did exist.

That you c ...[text shortened]... r imaginary god is good makes you immoral and dangerous.

You and your religion are repulsive.

I am simply pointing out how unbelievably stupid your beliefs are.
...
That you can't understand that makes you blinded by your own beliefs.

Ditto, my good man, ditto.

You and your religion are repulsive.

That's okay, Satan thinks this as well.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So although he believes in God, he too has not been presented with 'the choice', just as I in my ignorance have not.
I just find it contradictory how you frequently talk about the importance of free will, yet is patently obvious that free will has no value if the free agent in question is not privy to he facts. Essentially an agents choices are then eith ...[text shortened]... hich facts and falsehoods it is exposed to, or it is arbitrary. I fail to see the value in that.

Have you shunned people who would have enlightened you with the Good News (aka the Gospels)? Do you really have no clue as to what is required of us for salvation (i.e. the 'facts', as you put it)? How long have you been exposed to it through this forum? Long enough to be moved to research further, I'd gather. Are you complaining/making the excuse that you do not have access to these facts? I'm thinking that's probably not entirely true, now is it? Is it really 'ignorance' as you claim, or have you actually already exercised your free will in the matter?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
normally our loved ones die of natural causes. god is effectively going to murder us. can you be happy living in eternity with our murderer?

What about the families of criminal court judges across the world who sentence people to death for their crimes? I do not believe capital punishment is murder. Of course, you may view me as a monster for believing this, but that's your opinion only.

No, God will sentence us for our crimes against Him and others. This is not murder. It's just capital punishment.

Originally posted by Suzianne
I would think so. Because, they will have died the "second death" and they are gone. I do not believe in this "endless torture in the Lake of Fire" concept you atheists love to point at and call inhumane. After a while, yes, we'll forget about our loved ones who perished at Judgement just like we eventually move on when a loved one dies. We do keep them ...[text shortened]... ill be much the same after Judgement, except we'll also slowly forget our earthly lives as well.

The issue here is that there are people like GB who continue to worship god while accepting that this same god will (according to GB) dump me in hell for all eternity because I don't believe.

How can someone have such a depraved sense of morality that he would continue to love a god who would do that?

Originally posted by sonhouse
Of course you would think I am simply vanity talking. If you are so sure of that, call down your god and have it talk to me directly, I can be convinced then.

Even if I or anyone else were able to do so, even then it would be too late. Your belief must come from your heart, and the proof of your own eyes is not the belief of faith, it is merely an acknowledgement. At that point, it is far too late to believe on faith.

Originally posted by Great King Rat
The issue here is that there are people like GB who continue to worship god while accepting that this same god will (according to GB) dump me in hell for all eternity because I don't believe.

How can someone have such a depraved sense of morality that he would continue to love a god who would do that?

Sorry, you'll have to get your answers from him yourself. I cannot speak for him, nor can I judge him.

I'm just saying not ALL Christians believe this 'eternal torture' thing.

Edit: For man, anyways. Satan and his lieutenants are another thing entirely.

Originally posted by Suzianne
NO.

You may be "trying to understand how religious people view these matters" but even you have to admit, your sample size is pathetically small for achieving what you say you're trying to achieve. And there isn't even universal agreement on a lot of it. We do not all think the same thing. Frankly, it's insulting to think that you take that we do as a given.

Insulting yada yada yada! You've now officially murdered that word. May it rest in peace.

I'll rephrase: "I'm trying to understand how various religious people view these matters".

Originally posted by Suzianne
Sorry, you'll have to get your answers from him yourself. I cannot speak for him, nor can I judge him.

I know, but it's quite an undertaking to get him to answer.

Originally posted by Suzianne

I am simply pointing out how unbelievably stupid your beliefs are.
...
That you can't understand that makes you blinded by your own beliefs.

Ditto, my good man, ditto.

You and your religion are repulsive.

That's okay, Satan thinks this as well.

While I also think your beliefs are nuts. And offensive.

I don't lump all theists (or Christians) together.

So when I talk about people believing in eternal torture in hell, it's when I
am talking to someone who says that's what they believe.

When I talk to you, I talk about what you believe... And when I don't know
I ask and/or you correct me for getting it wrong.

So why do you lump yourself in with theists who believe in eternal torture
by assuming we are talking about your beliefs as well rather than just theirs?



What I meant when I said "That you can't understand that makes you blinded by
your own beliefs." was that he is acting like I really do believe and am denying gods
existence and trying to rationalise it.
Which isn't at all true.

I have absolutely no belief that your god exists, and am completely happy and fine
with that. I am not even remotely worried about the existence of an afterlife.

All I care about is what people believe about the reality we live in, in the here and now.
Because what people believe about reality (and morality) in the here and now effects
how they act which effects both them and others (including me).

That is the single and sole reason I am here.

And the fact that he continues to act like I am fooling myself, or I am afraid of hell and
trying to rationalise... or any of that nonsense.

He is denying my own statements to the contrary, calling me a liar to boot, and
is completely failing to understand my position.



I would hope that while we disagree... I don't misunderstand your position in the same way.

That's okay, Satan thinks this as well.

Satan is just another fictional character from a collection of bad stories.

Voldermort was scarier.

Originally posted by Suzianne
What about the families of criminal court judges across the world who sentence people to death for their crimes? I do not believe capital punishment is murder. Of course, you may view me as a monster for believing this, but that's your opinion only.

No, God will sentence us for our crimes against Him and others. This is not murder. It's just capital punishment.

That is murder. It is always murder.

Capital punishment is state sanctioned murder.

Which is why all civilised countries have banned it.

Originally posted by Suzianne
Have you shunned people who would have enlightened you with the Good News (aka the Gospels)?

Quite probably. And for good reason. So where was my free will?

Do you really have no clue as to what is required of us for salvation (i.e. the 'facts', as you put it)?
Yes, I have no clue. Sure, I have been told by people such as you, but the fact remains that I do not believe God exists, so it is not in my list of known 'facts'.

How long have you been exposed to it through this forum? Long enough to be moved to research further, I'd gather.
No, I am not moved to research further. I am researching something else altogether - how you rationalize your claims that appear to me to not make sense.

Are you complaining/making the excuse that you do not have access to these facts?
No, I am pointing out that I do not have access to these facts. I am asking you how you can value free will when people do not have access to facts cannot really make a free will choice. Not even Satan has access to the facts according to your earlier post.

I'm thinking that's probably not entirely true, now is it? Is it really 'ignorance' as you claim, or have you actually already exercised your free will in the matter?
If God exists, then I am truly and utterly ignorant of his existence. I am also utterly ignorant of any facts that presuppose his existence. And no, I don't think I exercised my free will in the matter, or at least my free will was not privy to all the facts when it was exercised.

Originally posted by Suzianne
What about the families of criminal court judges across the world who sentence people to death for their crimes? I do not believe capital punishment is murder. Of course, you may view me as a monster for believing this, but that's your opinion only.

No, God will sentence us for our crimes against Him and others. This is not murder. It's just capital punishment.

I agree with googlefudge. all capital punishment is murder.


but just for the hell of it lets pretend I don't think its murder. a judge usually would only hand out the judgement of death in very extreme cases such as murder.
what are the conditions that your god hands out death? would you consider them to be as extreme as murder? is not believing in god the same as committing murder in gods eyes?

Originally posted by twhitehead
Quite probably. And for good reason. So where was my free will?

[b]Do you really have no clue as to what is required of us for salvation (i.e. the 'facts', as you put it)?
Yes, I have no clue. Sure, I have been told by people such as you, but the fact remains that I do not believe God exists, so it is not in my list of known 'facts'.

...[text shortened]... ll in the matter, or at least my free will was not privy to all the facts when it was exercised.

And no, I don't think I exercised my free will in the matter, or at least my free will was not privy to all the facts when it was exercised.

If you truly believe this, then I think what any sapient human would do is suspend the decision (made of your own free will) until such time as you had 'all the facts' (whatever this means to you). But I cannot see how you can claim that your free will has not been exercised and yet you still profess a belief (come to by you, although maybe without 'all the facts' ) that God does not exist. Sounds to me like you've already made up your mind (a decision exercising free will). And if you made up your mind without 'all the facts', then that sounds like it's your own fault. How is free will not involved again? Sounds like a whole lot of free will is getting thrown around here, unless you were somehow 'forced' to make up your mind, even without 'all the facts'.