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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyNO, NO, NO.
"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten [uniquely born] Son, that whoever [including Great King Rat and Grampy Bobby] believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who doe ...[text shortened]... information. You are well aware of your options. You, Great King Rat, will have no excuse. -Bob
There is NO EVIDENCE that ANY god exists.
There is NO EVIDENCE that we have souls.
There is NO EVIDENCE that there is an afterlife.
And you don't CHOOSE what you believe.
I can't just decide, "Oh today I'm going to believe that the bible god exists".
I don't believe because I have no reason whatsoever to believe.
And IF your god exists then that god is requiring people to worship it,
which in and of itself tells you that that god is not worthy of being worshipped,
or suffer a terrible fate. While providing no evidence that it exists let alone letting
us know we are being given this 'choice'.
The fact that there are a bunch of incoherents such as yourself that say that we
have this choice (with respect to their particular god or gods, and respective afterlives)
is not evidence that such a choice exists.
No god has ever come and told me that I have to choose to worship it or be punished.
I have no reason to think that gods exist.
We have very good evidence that our minds our a product of the physical workings of our
brains, thus ruling out souls or life force and thus afterlives.
We can explain the universe without gods, and even if we couldn't that would not be
evidence that gods existed, and even if it did mean gods existed that doesn't mean
that the bible god existed.
Stop quoting your book of fairy stories and wake up and realise that those of us who don't
believe have absolutely no rational reason to do so.
We have no rational reason to suppose we are being given this choice.
And even if we were.
This 'choice' makes your god an immoral tyrant worse than any other that have existed.
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Originally posted by Great King RatExactly
No, GB, I cannot choose to believe.
I could [b]say that I believe, I could even act like I believe, but that wouldn't mean that I actually believe.
Believe me, in a heartbeat I could fool you into thinking that I'm a believer. You're on the other side of the ocean, you don't know me and all I have is this forum to communicate via the ...[text shortened]... ot about willingness. I don't want to disbelieve. I just don't believe. And I can't change that.[/b]
And IF your god exists then that god is requiring people to worship it,
which in and of itself tells you that that god is not worthy of being worshipped,
or suffer a terrible fate. While providing no evidence that it exists let alone letting
us know we are being given this 'choice'.
And this is of course the most important issue with regards to theists. Forget about whether or not god exists for a moment. Let's say he does.
How can you - the theist - worship this being. How can you get on your knees and consider this being the greatest source of moraility? How can you shut down your own feelings, your own mind, your own sense of what's right and what's wrong and simply accept that god would burn me. ME! The very worst thing that I've apparently done in life is not believe and yet you - the theist - feel that that's a good enough reason to torture me for all eternity.
Why can't you say "I believe god exists, but I cannot accept that fairly good people will suffer for all eternity? I don't care if you send me to hell for that, I refuse to stop thinking!"
Originally posted by googlefudgeFrankly, you're acting like you have a bet on it.
NO, NO, NO.
There is NO EVIDENCE that ANY god exists.
There is NO EVIDENCE that we have souls.
There is NO EVIDENCE that there is an afterlife.
And you don't CHOOSE what you believe.
I can't just decide, "Oh today I'm going to believe that the bible god exists".
I don't believe because I have no reason whatsoever to believe.
And IF y ...[text shortened]... ere.
This 'choice' makes your god an immoral tyrant worse than any other that have existed.
Hmmm, oh yeah, I guess you do.
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Originally posted by SuzianneNo, I'm getting irritated with people telling me that I have this 'choice' to
Frankly, you're acting like you have a bet on it.
Hmmm, oh yeah, I guess you do.
make when there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that I do in fact have
this choice to make.
I know I don't have this choice to make. Your god doesn't exist and we have
no souls to go to an afterlife, which is ok because there is no afterlife to go to.
However I take issue with the idea that IF all that was not true, and IF I really
DID have to make this choice... That I am at fault and deserving of punishment
for not kowtowing to a tyrant.
Originally posted by googlefudgeI tell you what. Then just do us all the favor of not being all surprised, shocked, indignant or whatever at judgement when you are judged an unrepentant sinner. Before you pay your price, though, you will know the truth. But I suppose for you, it will still be Christians' fault for not trying harder to convince you of your error.
No, I'm getting irritated with people telling me that I have this 'choice' to
make when there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that I do in fact have
this choice to make.
I know I don't have this choice to make. Your god doesn't exist and we have
no souls to go to an afterlife, which is ok because there is no afterlife to go to.
However I ...[text shortened]... e this choice... That I am at fault and deserving of punishment
for not kowtowing to a tyrant.
All this aside, I wish you could see it from the Christian side, and why we try so hard to bring people to God. It's not just this 'final reward' business, but a life with serenity and love from your creator.
I'm saddened that you harden your heart to Him. This is what is preventing you from seeing the 'evidence', if not in your own life, then that in the lives of others.
Originally posted by SuzianneDo YOU feel that not believing in god in this life is reason enough to be tormented for all eternity after death?
I tell you what. Then just do us all the favor of not being all surprised, shocked, indignant or whatever at judgement when you are judged an unrepentant sinner. Before you pay your price, though, you will know the truth. But I suppose for you, it will still be Christians' fault for not trying harder to convince you of your error.
All this aside, I wi ...[text shortened]... nting you from seeing the 'evidence', if not in your own life, then that in the lives of others.
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Originally posted by SuzianneSin, is going against the commands/wishes of god.
I tell you what. Then just do us all the favor of not being all surprised, shocked, indignant or whatever at judgement when you are judged an unrepentant sinner. Before you pay your price, though, you will know the truth. But I suppose for you, it will still be Christians' fault for not trying harder to convince you of your error.
All this aside, I wi ...[text shortened]... nting you from seeing the 'evidence', if not in your own life, then that in the lives of others.
I would not recognise god as having any authority or right to impose it's
commands or wishes on anyone.
Because that is the way of tyrants, that is the way of dictators, that is the
way of kings.
Kings is what it boils down to... Jesus is our KING, god is our KING...
Um, no. We're a democracy, we don't believe in kings any-more.
Those people in Buckingham Palace... Just figure heads, no actual powers...
Because we learned that kings and tyrants and dictators are a bad idea.
The idea of an absolute monarch who has ultimate power simply by existing is
an anathema to modern society, and morality.
We value democracy, power to the people, and oppose disenfranchisement.
Your god has no special exception.
And for the last time. A bunch of self deluded irrational people all claiming DIFFERENT
and contradictory gods and afterlives as THE ONE TRUTH is NOT evidence that such things
exist.
It doesn't matter how many times, or how fervently you proclaim that we must worship
you god or face hell (or whatever). Because YOU HAVE NO EVIDENCE that what you say
is true.
I CAN see it from your perspective, but I can also see that your perspective is deluded and
irrational.
What you can't see is MY perspective. Otherwise you would never say the things you say.
Because your posts only make your position look less tenable to me.
You are making things worse [from your perspective], not better.
And if you actually understood my position you would know that.
Originally posted by Great King Rat"No, GB, I cannot choose to believe." -Great King Rat
No, GB, I cannot choose to believe.
I could [b]say that I believe, I could even act like I believe, but that wouldn't mean that I actually believe.
Believe me, in a heartbeat I could fool you into thinking that I'm a believer. You're on the other side of the ocean, you don't know me and all I have is this forum to communicate via the ...[text shortened]... ot about willingness. I don't want to disbelieve. I just don't believe. And I can't change that.[/b]
One Question this Morning @ GMT-6: In your entire adult life,
have you ever changed your mind about a strongly held belief and acceptance of the truth of a)....
in order to seriously consider the possibility of b)....?