Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI have freedom and choices about exploring beliefs and exposing myself to things that may shape my beliefs, but I cannot simply decide or choose to believe something that is not believable to me. If you think someone can, then give an example from your own life. I will consider it.
That's not what I asked you. I asked you whether 'belief' is a choice? Yes or No?
Originally posted by FMFSo I take your answer to my question as a 'no' then?
I have freedom and choices about exploring beliefs and exposing myself to things that may shape my beliefs, but I cannot simply decide or choose to believe something that is not believable to me. If you think someone can, then give an example from your own life. I will consider it.
Originally posted by FMFIf you are not the one that 'decides' what is 'believable' and what is not, then who is?
I have freedom and choices about exploring beliefs and exposing myself to things that may shape my beliefs, but I cannot simply decide or choose to believe something that is not believable to me. If you think someone can, then give an example from your own life. I will consider it.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkMy answers are exactly as I have stated them. If you don't understand them, please say why. We are free to choose how we go about pursuing the evidence that gives rise to our beliefs but we - that is you and me - we cannot choose to believe something that we don't believe or that runs counter to the things that we do believe.
So I take your answer to my question as a 'no' then?
07 Sep 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkWe come to realize that we believe and don't believe things. I don't think it makes any psychological sense to frame it as 'a decision'. I didn't "decide" that I didn't hold Christian beliefs anymore. I realized it. It was a long drawn out process. It was not a decision or a choice.
If you are not the one that 'decides' what is 'believable' and what is not, then who is?
Originally posted by FMFSo no belief that you hold has ever been due to a conscious decision? Did you just realise over time that you were a Christian when you initially became one? Was Christianity initially believable and then over time it was suddenly unbelievable?
We come to realize that we believe and don't believe things. I don't think it makes any psychological sense to frame it as 'a decision'. I didn't "decide" that I didn't hold Christian beliefs anymore. I realized it. It was a long drawn out process. It was not a decision or a choice.
07 Sep 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkOnly the kinds of conscious decisions that I have described. I think I have answered you succinctly and cogently throughout this exchange. Your questions often make you seem like you either don't understand or you aren't paying attention.
So no belief that you hold has ever been due to a conscious decision?
07 Sep 16
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI was raised as a Christian, grew up among Christians, was educated in a Christian school, and even worked and lived among Christians here in the predominantly Muslim Indonesia when I moved here ~ and I still do. No, as I have already indicated more than once, the realization that I was losing my Christian beliefs did not happen "suddenly". Good grief, after all I've said on this matter, how can you be asking me (in good faith) if I found them "suddenly unbelievable"? It's as if you are skipping some of my posts.
Was Christianity initially believable and then over time it was suddenly unbelievable?
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkYes. It was one of the things I realized as I was growing up. I didn't "become" one, unless you count baptism as being an event or moment when someone "becomes" a Christian.
Did you just realise over time that you were a Christian when you initially became one?
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkThe two brothers did not have identical life experiences, they are also siblings and it is important to siblings, especially twins, to assert their own identities, so it is quite natural for them to believe different things. Although there are choices involved, belief is not a matter of choice. I can choose to stubbornly refuse to admit evidence, but supposing I do give whatever proposition I'm being asked to believe a fair hearing. Well, either I'll believe it for a number of reasons, typically to do with correspondence with other beliefs I hold or I'll reject it. There are two cases, one where the belief is trivial or not of personal importance to me and the other case where it is. When I'm being asked to believe that LIGO detected gravitational waves from the merging of two stellar mass black holes then because I understand the experimental set up and it fits with everything else I know about this I believe it, but it won't destroy my world view if I turn out to be wrong in this belief, I'm not especially committed to it. However, at no point in this has my free will been engaged. There wasn't a choice to make, a judgement that their methodology was good enough, but that isn't a choice it's a bit of checking. All that changes when the thing I'm being asked to believe is more important to me is that I'll produce a stronger emotional response, I don't think I'm any more rational about the proposition I'm being asked to believe. So, while I may have free will as regards considering the proposition in the first place, either it fits with my world view so I believe it anyway or if not is adequately justified and I'm not strongly committed to the converse in which case I'll believe it, or it does not fit my world view and I'm strongly committed to the converse in which case I won't. I do not think free will has much to do with belief formation.
If free will has no bearing on belief then what does? How do you explain that two brothers that grew up in exactly the same environment can have different beliefs? Surely if two people are presented with the same evidence, one person can choose to believe it and another person can choose to reject it? The fact that one person believes in the evidence sho ...[text shortened]... be done", the other person chooses not to submit to the will of God. That's how I see it anyway.
Originally posted by DeepThoughtSo no choice that you make has any influence on shaping your world view?
The two brothers did not have identical life experiences, they are also siblings and it is important to siblings, especially twins, to assert their own identities, so it is quite natural for them to believe different things. Although there are choices involved, belief is not a matter of choice. I can choose to stubbornly refuse to admit evidence, but s ...[text shortened]... converse in which case I won't. I do not think free will has much to do with belief formation.
What then does shape your world view? And what is the main thing that impacts belief formation?
Do you not decide if something fits into your worldview or not?
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI think a world view is formed by something that is more akin to a process of realization and constant change. I can decide that a given piece of evidence is credible but I cannot decide that a piece of evidence ~ that I find incredible ~ is somehow credible regardless, and then willfully choose to believe it anyway.
Ok then if you have a world view, do you not decide whether something fits into your world view or not?