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Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukeI wrote a thread back over a year ago. I think it was called:
'If you forgive others the wrongs they have done to you, your Father in heaven will also forgive you. ...'
(Matthew 6:14-15)
Five Kinds of Forgiveness.
In that thread I dealt with different kinds of forgiveness in the Bible. It was not original. I learned the subject very well from a book by Watchman Nee with one chapter title, I believe, of the same name.
Here is a small portion of a book from The Collected Works of Watchman Nee - Vol. 20 - Questions on the Gospel. Living Stream Ministry is the publisher.
Question Forty-Eight
CONCERNING DIFFERENT KINDS
OF FORGIVENESS
How many kinds of forgiveness from God are there according to the Bible? How do we explain these different kinds of forgiveness?
ANSWER
We have to remember one thing: the consequences of sin determine the kind of forgiveness involved. There are at least five consequences of sin:
(1) Eternal perdition.
(2) Separation from the people of God. In the Old Testament, if an Israelite committed sin, he was cut off from the people of Israel. In the New Testament we also have these words: "Remove the evil man from among yourselves" (1 Cor. 5:13).
(3) Fellowship with God is hindered.
(4) If sin is not put away, God will chasten and discipline.
(5) If sin is not forsaken, the Lord may deal with it when He comes to reign in the millennium, and the position of this person in the kingdom may be affected by such sin.
Since sins have five possible consequences, there must also be five kinds of forgiveness. If there were only three kinds of forgiveness, what would happen to the other two consequences of sin? If there were only four kinds of forgiveness, what would happen to the other remaining consequence of sin? Many wrongly teach that there is only one kind of judgment. The result of such a teaching is much confusion. If we are not clear regarding these five kinds of forgiveness, we will not know what to do many times.
What are the five kinds of forgiveness? First, we will mention them briefly; afterwards, we will talk about them one by one.
(1) God's eternal forgiveness. (Relating to the problem of eternal salvation.)
(2) The forgiveness through God's people. (Relating to the problem of the fellowship between God's children. This kind of forgiveness can be regarded as God's forgiveness through a person or through the forgiveness of the church.)
(3) The forgiveness to restore fellowship. (Relating to the problem of fellowshipping with God.)
(4) The forgiveness of God's discipline. (Relating to the way God disciplines His children.)
(5) The forgiveness in the kingdom. (Relating to the forgiveness of the millennium.)
Now we will explain these five kinds of forgiveness separately.
see https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=0C19C9234E
Originally posted by @dj2beckerWhy do you ask me?
John 3:3 Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again.”
That means that someone who does good works but is not born again will not see the kingdom of God.
My question to Raj stands unanswered: Rajk, would you agree that someone who does ‘good works’ but is not born again, will not enter the kingdom of Heaven?
Jesus Christ determines who enters the Kingdom of God.
Jesus said do good works
He said love your neighbour
He said have faith and believe
He said be born again.
He sald all those things.
You choose to place faith first and foremost. Thats your choice
I have decided to place the one thing he stressed most during his time on earth.
The one thing he identified to be the critical thing on judgment day.
Thats my choice.
Originally posted by @thinkofoneNice
Matthew 13
11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. 13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while ...[text shortened]... desired to see what you see, and did not see it, and to hear what you hear, and did not hear it.
Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-dukejesus chose his words wisely but he is no ones God.
Rajk999's position that he has repeatedly consistently:
'Jesus said so. Do good works, live righteously and you will enter the Kingdom of God.'
Originally posted by @rajk999The problem is you’re busy condemning other Christians and saying they’re going to hell because they don’t agree with your choice, which is the false doctrine of salvation by good works.
Why do you ask me?
Jesus Christ determines who enters the Kingdom of God.
Jesus said do good works
He said love your neighbour
He said have faith and believe
He said be born again.
He sald all those things.
You choose to place faith first and foremost. Thats your choice
I have decided to place the one thing he stressed most during his time on ...[text shortened]... arth.
The one thing he identified to be the critical thing on judgment day.
Thats my choice.
Originally posted by @karoly-aczel<<<Rajk999’s position that he has repeatedly consistently:
jesus chose his words wisely but he is no ones God.
'Jesus said so. Do good works, live righteously and you will enter the Kingdom of God.'>>>>
Right, but he’s added a few since then. And he has decided not to explain or refute words from Jesus Christ that do not agree at all with the false doctrine of salvation by works but instead speak of salvation by faith in Him.
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Many of the beliefs of many Christians are based upon taking verses out of context.
Evidently there are those who believe that John 8:24 supports the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. This belief is particularly absurd. All one need do is look at other things Jesus said in John 8.
Let's look at what it actually says:
John 8
24“Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.”
Jesus later explains Himself:
John 8
"34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin."
--Those who commit sin are slaves.
" 31 ...If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
--Those who abide in His word are true disciples of Jesus, are freed from the slavery of committing sin and are no longer slaves.
"36So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed. "
--Jesus reemphasizes that his true disciples are indeed made free from committing sin.
" 35The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever.
51Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death.”
--Those who continue to commit sin will not have eternal life. Those who no longer commit sin will have eternal life.
Clearly Jesus did not have salvation by faith alone in mind in John 8:24. The claim that it is supported by what Jesus said earlier in John 3 about being "born again" falls to this as well.
From what I've seen, many Christians don't really care what Jesus actually said or didn't say. Instead They attempt to make it fit a theology by taking verses out of context as was done here in John 8 and John 3 as well
Originally posted by @thinkofone<<--Those who commit sin are slaves.>>
Many of the beliefs of many Christians are based upon taking verses out of context.
Evidently there are those who believe that John 8:24 supports the doctrine of salvation by faith alone. This belief is particularly absurd. All one need do is look at other things Jesus said in John 8.
Let's look at what it actually says:
John 8
24“Therefore I sai ...[text shortened]... it fit a theology by taking verses out of context as was done here in John 8 and John 3 as well
Slaves to sin, yes. In other words, those who commit sin cannot stop sinning because they are slaves to sin (or, looking at it another way, sin is their master.)
<<--Those who abide in His word are true disciples of Jesus, are freed from the slavery of committing sin and are no longer slaves.>>
Right (except I would add “to sin” at the end of what you have written so it reads “no longer slaves to sin.&rdquo😉 But the more important point refers to “abide in His Word.” What do you think His Word is? I maintain it is to believe in Him and that God raised Him from the dead. This belief leads to the indwelling of God’s Holy Spirit and enables one to walk in the Spirit and not in the flesh.
<<--Jesus reemphasizes that his true disciples are indeed made free from committing sin.>>
Yes, but how? If the Son makes you free. Not if good works make you free. And I would make the distinction that they are not free from committing sin, they are free from the power of sin. There is a subtle but important difference.
<<-Those who continue to commit sin will not have eternal life. Those who no longer commit sin will have eternal life.[/quote]>>
Everyone sins and will continue to sin (especially if they have not accepted Jesus Christ into their hearts as their Lord and Saviour.) Are you really suggesting that only people who do not sin will inherit eternal life? What was Jesus’ sacrifice on the cross for then? Why would He need to be a sacrifice for sin if one could no longer sin on his or her own by doing good works?
One who accepts Jesus Christ into their hearts a la John 3:16 and Romans 10:9 have God’s Holy Spirit indwelling them, which frees them from the power of sin and from being a slave to sin. But they, as humans, retain their sin nature and are still subject to the desires of the flesh, which is why Paul speaks of Christians facing a struggle between the Spirit and the flesh. The influence of the flesh can be reduced by increasing the influence of the Spirit through regular reading of God’s Word and regular prayer. Then one is led by the Spirit and does not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,
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Originally posted by @romans1009You don't really care what Jesus actually said or didn't say. You don't see what is there and you see what is not there. Read through the words of Jesus I cited again.
<<--Those who commit sin are slaves.>>
Slaves to sin, yes. In other words, those who commit sin cannot stop sinning because they are slaves to sin (or, looking at it another way, sin is their master.)
<<--Those who abide in His word are true disciples of Jesus, are freed from the slavery of committing sin and are no longer slaves.>>
Right (excep ...[text shortened]... d and regular prayer. Then one is led by the Spirit and does not fulfill the lusts of the flesh,
"While seeing [you] do not see, and while hearing [you] do not hear, nor do [you] understand."
How can you abide in His word if while seeing you do not see, and while hearing you do not hear, while you do not understand? How can you LIVE His word if while seeing you do not see, and while hearing you do not hear, while you do not understand?
Originally posted by @thinkofoneIt’s interesting you know (more accurately, think you know) what I care about, think, believe and see.
You don't really care what Jesus actually said or didn't say. You don't see what is there and you see what is not there. Read through the words of Jesus I cited again.
"While seeing [you] do not see, and while hearing [you] do not hear, nor do [you] understand."
How can you abide in His word if while seeing you do not see, and while hearing you do ...[text shortened]... if while seeing you do not see, and while hearing you do not hear, while you do not understand?
I simply asked you what you believe Jesus was referring to when He said for people to abide in His Word. Don’t know why you feel the need to attack me and be so hostile, Do you think that is abiding in His Word, amigo?