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@eladar said"Will I see you in heaven?" is a rhetorical question. Those who pose rhetorical questions mostly do not expect an answer; a rhetorical question is mostly intended to squelch any answer. I think my sister probably didn't expect any answer; certainly not the one I gave her.
Look at what I said. I said that what was said to the sister is insulting to those who believe in heaven.
Let us unpack the text behind the text of this seemingly innocuous question, "will I see you in heaven?" It contains three components:
a. "I (the speaker) am going to heaven…" [Isn't this presumptuous? To presume to know the mind of God and how God will judge any given soul.]
b. "whereas, you, my dear brother (the listener), are going to hell…" [Isn't this presumptuous? To presume to know the mind of God and how God will judge any given soul.]
plus c. "if you ever want to see me again, you have to convert to my religion/sect/cult." [which is emotional blackmail.]
I don't suppose that my sister thought about it in that much detail. She did not invent this particular question; she was parroting something which slips glibly from some Christians' tongues, almost as a cliche. Considered in light of the text behind the text, the seemingly innocuous question comes across as a school-ground taunt: "I'm goin' to the movies and you're not — nya nya!"
My response, "gentle and enigmatic" as it was, had exactly the right effect of intimating to my sister that her veiled, though probably thoughtless, taunt was inappropriate, without, I might add, hurting anyone's feelings or offending anyone. Except you—but that was entirely your own doing, you project insult where there is none.
You have a right to freedom of religion; I have a right to freedom from religion; we both have a right to express our opinions about these matters. A right not to feel insulted — there is none such.
@moonbus saidShe was reaching out to try to save you. You spat in her face so now you do fine as long as religious stuff is avoided.
"Will I see you in heaven?" is a rhetorical question. Those who pose rhetorical questions mostly do not expect an answer; a rhetorical question is mostly intended to squelch any answer. I think my sister probably didn't expect any answer; certainly not the one I gave her.
Let us unpack the text behind the text of this seemingly innocuous question, "will I see you in heaven ...[text shortened]... ight to express our opinions about these matters. A right not to feel insulted — there is none such.
@eladar saidTheir beliefs are different. Thats what their exchange showed. Neither of them "spat" in each other's face. Their relationship seems like a positive model for siblings with contrasting beliefs.
She asked moonbus if moonbus has accepted Jesus Christ which is how she believes one goes to Heaven.
Moonbus replied yes she will see moonbus in heaven but without Jesus if she is willing to open her eyes.
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@fmf saidYou are christian hating bigot. Of course you can't see it when someone abuses a Christian relative. You would act the same.
Their beliefs are different. Thats what their exchange showed. Neither of them "spat" in each other's face. Their relationship seems like a positive model for siblings with contrasting beliefs.
Moonbus' abusive words is why if moonbus' sister is going to have a relationship with moonbus religion must be avoided.
None of you christian hating regulars around here can get along with a Christian if religion is brought up because you people are so abusive.
Now back tp your God hating and Christian hating discussion. I am certain you will have many more such discussions.
@eladar saidThere has been no "hating" and no "abuse". moonbus didn't say anything "abusive" to his sister.
You are christian hating bigot. Of course you can't see it when someone abuses a Christian relative. You would act the same.
Moonbus' abusive words is why if moonbus' sister is going to have a relationship with moonbus religion must be avoided.
None of you christian hating regulars around here can get along with a Christian if religion is brought up because you people are so abusive.
@dj2becker removed their quoted postYes, apparently you missed the whole point of the thread. Page one, dive's opening post has the link.
@bigdoggproblem saidTo be completely fair... Isn't this a pretty universal teaching tactic?
In Sunday school, the teacher would ask questions, not get quite the answer they wanted, and prod further with leading questions until they got the student to say what they wanted to hear (thus programming them).
I know I have received endless instruction that was all premised along these lines.
It's often thought of a way to teach in a clever fashion, right, and I think it is even partly based in the very ungodly Rogerian humanism: the notion that we all have the answers and the right feelings & thoughts inside ourselves, so we can just "pull them out."
I remember a liberal Canadian professor I once had who loved to interrogate people of different views with leading questions where you would seem insane to say "no, that's not right," and slowly build up your little statements to things like "Well, yes, everyone has human dignity," into a conclusion very far from the original point of the discussion.
@eladar said@Eladar
You are christian hating bigot. Of course you can't see it when someone abuses a Christian relative. You would act the same.
Moonbus' abusive words is why if moonbus' sister is going to have a relationship with moonbus religion must be avoided.
None of you christian hating regulars around here can get along with a Christian if religion is brought up because you people a ...[text shortened]... God hating and Christian hating discussion. I am certain you will have many more such discussions.
You are so mistaken, about so many things, one hardly knows where to begin with you.
First of all, while I cannot speak for FMF, I do not hate your religion or your imaginary God. It is your confrontationally aggressive attitude I disdain.
Secondly, I tried to engage you on a rational level several times here, and you called me an "arse." You showed your true colors there, and thereby demonstrated which one of us is the abusive one.
Thirdly,
moonbus @Eladar
"My, but you are a judgemental fellow."
Eladar @moonbus
"Yep just like you. You simply try to be nicer about it but the result is the same."
No, not just like me at all. You subscribe to a religion which preaches, 'judge not, lest you be judged.' Yet you do judge. You think some people are better than others, and when I pressed you that this is contrary to your religion, you fudged and said that some people are "bigger" than others. But you actually still believe that some people are better than others. That makes you a) a hypocrite and b) a failure as a witness to Jesus's message.
I do not subscribe to a religion which preaches 'judge not.' So it is definitely not the same when I judge someone and you judge someone.
Finally, my sister and I have mutually acknowledged that each of us is pursuing his or her own spiritual path and that any attempt to proselytize, either on her part or on mine, would be futile. Our silence on this matter is a sign of mutual respect. I gather from some of the other posters' comments here that some of their religious families were much less able to deal amicably with a child who went his own way. I am deeply grateful to my parents and my sister, who had the good sense not to break up a family over this issue.